Ideological Clash even in Libya

Remember all those long debates about Bush's "war for oil" and patiently explaining that oil costs the same regardless of whether Iraq is a dictatorship or not? Then the long debates about "not UN-authorized" and patiently explaining that the UN wasn't a moral authority but more a collection of street thugs? It turns out the "real reason" the left-wing were debating had nothing to do with any of those things. Unfortunately it's scary that I can't get people to even agree to protect defenceless women. It means if my daughter is ever in harm's way, there is a large number of people who won't help her.

Anyway, here is (slightly censored) conversation I had with an ideological opponent. Note that where I said "anglo-saxon" note that Iceland had current anglo-saxon ideology a long time before the anglo-saxons. More than 1000 years of democracy in fact. By osmosis or whatever, the anglo-saxons picked up on the idea, and suddenly democratic forces obtained a lot of arms, and the idea was able to be spread much more easily than if Iceland was trying to do it on its own.

paul: how's it going?
stubborn_guy: Very good
stubborn_guy: How are you?
paul: i've been busy with libya
stubborn_guy: You are?
stubborn_guy: How?
paul: petitioning my government
stubborn_guy: ah....ok
stubborn_guy: Well, planes bombed Libya
paul: not a real lot can be done practically
paul: missiles only so far i hink
paul: thing
stubborn_guy: It is all political
paul: think
stubborn_guy: Yes, missiles
paul: do you support using the military in this situation?
stubborn_guy: No
paul: wow
stubborn_guy: I do not support outside interference
paul: even with a UN resolution?
paul: even with the Libyans screaming for help?
stubborn_guy: UN has not resolved anything
stubborn_guy: There is no difference if some Americans in the US screamed for help to fight the federal gov't
stubborn_guy: It is theirs to deal with
paul: there's a big difference
paul: the americans just need to vote to change it
stubborn_guy: There is no big difference
paul: HUGE difference from my perspective
stubborn_guy: Well, so far, that is the case
paul: what do you mean "so far"?
stubborn_guy: America had its civil war to be in a position to vote today
stubborn_guy: Libya is undergoing it now
paul: America had the French doing the heavy lifting in the revolutionary war
paul: now the french are repeating that
paul: the americans had ZERO (zilch, nada) chance of winning without french heavy-lifting
stubborn_guy: Let us face it, France has interest in Libya because Libya supplies oil to France
stubborn_guy: Not for the civil war. France did not aid
stubborn_guy: British tried to aid the South though
paul: did you ask any French people why they support Libya?
paul: you speak French
stubborn_guy: No French opinion matters. Only gov't opinion
paul: hop into a chatroom and speak to some Frogs
paul: what makes you think the govt has an opinion different from the public that elected them?
stubborn_guy: Ordinary French could careless as they have all these Africans in their midst creating chaos
paul: have you asked some ordinary french?
stubborn_guy: I do not believe the gov't is the representative of the people.
paul: "do you care?"
paul: even if the govt is some freakoid alien species, does it make any difference so long as the public get what they want?
stubborn_guy: I care that there is acceptable peace in the world. I do not support the idea a country interfering in another country's affairs, even if it means there is civil war.
paul: it'd be good if you could ring some random french people and see what they have to say for themselves
paul: what is "acceptable peace"?
paul: acceptable by who?
stubborn_guy: True....but I think it would not matter as I said, the gov't usually does not represent the people
stubborn_guy: Yes, people elect these politicians but they are in it for themselves. Never really for the people
paul: i don't believe the govt is that unrepresentative
paul: i think they are fairly ordinary - from the same culture
stubborn_guy: Nah....that is the simplistic view of things
paul: what's simplistic is assuming they are alien space bats without a shred of evidence to support that theory
stubborn_guy: HAHAHAHAHHA
paul: if YOU were elected to office, would you substitute your brain in the first day of office with that of an alien space bat?
paul: if not, why do you assume all these people do?
paul: it's certainly not what they SAY
stubborn_guy: Here is a good example. An American contact told me that in the US, Missouri legislation passed a bill to ban smoking in St Louis in enclosed spaces.
stubborn_guy: BUT, legislators who wrote that bill in the first place, decided to exempt the Missouri capitol from the smoking ban
stubborn_guy: What a crock!
paul: rofl!
paul: ok, but if you asked them why they did that, you might be able to find out why
paul: there will be some logic behind that
paul: they're not ASBs
stubborn_guy: HAHAHHAHA
stubborn_guy: Unfortunately, I believe in an automated way of doing things. You do your stuff and I do my stuff. I assume that you are doing your stuff correctly and I do not need to keep poking at you to find out why you do your stuff that way.
stubborn_guy: Now, if you produce that kind of legislation, then I judge you by it without any need of interviewing you.
paul: you need to poke someone if you want to make disputed claims about them
paul: i dispute what you say about the french government
stubborn_guy: HAHAHHAHA
paul: they are acting admirably at the moment
paul: taking the lead
paul: the way it should be
paul: i'd rather anglo-saxons weren't the front man for operations
paul: anglo-saxons just provide the deadly punch if anything goes wrong
stubborn_guy: Yes, true, just like old time.....European imperialism
paul: and gives the others the confidence they need
paul: it's not imperialism
paul: it's helping allies
stubborn_guy: China was in a mess long time ago.
paul: imperialism existed in the past
paul: i'm not disputing that
stubborn_guy: All those plotting for the overthrow of the Qing dynasty ran to Japan.
paul: it doesn't exist now
stubborn_guy: ...and plotted revolution from Japan.
stubborn_guy: That to me is no different from Afghanistan harbouring Osama Bin Laden and plotting to destroy the US.
stubborn_guy: Japan and Afghanistan should have stopped these people from doing so as they are not supposed to use another country as a base of operation
paul: You're assuming the Afghans had any choice in the matter
paul: about 95% of afghans are against Al Qaeda
stubborn_guy: Are you sure?
paul: that's what polls showed
paul: want to see the polls?
stubborn_guy: Have you surveyed?
paul: others have surveyed
paul: i have contacted afghans in afghanistan myself too
stubborn_guy: Because if they really are, they would have thrown them out themselves
paul: and talked to them about such things
paul: impossible to beat automatic weapons
stubborn_guy: That means they are not
paul: you have a fantasy view of revolution
stubborn_guy: I certainly do
paul: not everyone is lucky like the filipinos
paul: the military changed sides there
stubborn_guy: Because I believe even the military come from civilians.
paul: yes, called "conscripts"
paul: for a reason
stubborn_guy: Their parents and brothers and sisters are equally citizens of the same country.
paul: you have to force people to fight
paul: stubborn_guy, you're not allowing for the true horror of a dictatorship
stubborn_guy: It is idiotic to think that once they are soldiers, they lose their brains to think.
paul: these are real people who have been defeated by automatic weapons
paul: they lose their ability to act the way they want to
paul: if they disobey orders, their wife will be raped
paul: what would you do?
stubborn_guy: It is never hopeless. Maybe not the time, but never hopeless
paul: raped by their government
stubborn_guy: The gov't is nothing if the people turned against it.
stubborn_guy: Look at Egypt
paul: look at iran
paul: egypt had decades of dictatorship anyway
paul: they got lucky at the right time
paul: look at the libyans
stubborn_guy: Same with Iran. The people in Iran believe in their gov't today
paul: even when they do a successful revolt, it's still not enough to get to tripoli
paul: the people of iran do NOT believe in their govt today
paul: look closely at libya now
paul: that's the best example
stubborn_guy: ha!
paul: the people HAVE risen up
paul: the govt has hired foreign mercs
stubborn_guy: The People in Iran do believe in their gov't.
paul: and given them all the good gear
stubborn_guy: They can rise up against their gov't if they do.
paul: that's not true about iran
stubborn_guy: Just like when the Shah was in power
paul: but let's use the real live example - libya
paul: but let's use the real live example - libya
paul: how are the libyans meant to get to tripoli?
paul: 70% of libya is under rebel control right now
stubborn_guy: That means Libya is not ready for a revolution.
stubborn_guy: Revolution happens in a natural manner and not in a forced way
paul: they ARE ready - do you seriously think these people like gaddafi?
paul: they've HAD a revolution
paul: that's why 70% of the country is free
stubborn_guy: Tripoli will fall if the people in Tripoli believe that Khadaffi should be ousted
paul: that is NOT TRUE
paul: Tripoli will fall when the automatic weapons are taken out
stubborn_guy: It is true!
stubborn_guy: Nope
paul: the people of tripoli can't bet them
stubborn_guy: That means the military is not supporting the people
paul: this is a simple derivation of the laws of physics
stubborn_guy: Nope
paul: the military is split
paul: stubborn_guy, let's just make this deal
stubborn_guy: The military is split then it would be fighting of equal strength
paul: if you are ever under a cruel dictatorship, i will not help you. i will insist that you fight the dictatorship on your own and not help you in any way
stubborn_guy: There won't be any need to get outside interference
stubborn_guy: Correct
paul: however, if *I* am ever under a cruel dictatorship, *I* want external help, so please assist *me*
stubborn_guy: Nope
stubborn_guy: You have to do it on your own
paul: if your daughter is being raped by a gang of thugs, shall i ignore that?
stubborn_guy: For anyone outside of Libya, yes
stubborn_guy: Because if many of the people are fed up, they will overthrow the gov't and punish all these culprits.
stubborn_guy: But guess what, if an external force meddles, then, it would be difficult for the people to know what is actually happening.
stubborn_guy: No foreign gov't helps other countries without a price.
stubborn_guy: All exact payment one way or another.
paul: that is not true. america has liberated lots of people, including my australia, and asked for nothing in return
paul: they liberated the philippines in 1989 too
paul: or rather - "safeguarded philippines"
paul: a pretty thankless task
paul: australia liberated the solomon islands too
stubborn_guy: Are you joking?
paul: are YOU?
paul: i gave you evidence
stubborn_guy: The Philippines was liberated by the US in 1989?
paul: you've given nothing except conspiracy theories
stubborn_guy: It never did.
paul: yes - are you familiar with 1989 (not 1986)?
paul: yes it did
paul: you're not even familiar with your own history
stubborn_guy: The US just showed its true color of supporting dictators who were friendly to the US.
paul: wrong
paul: 1989
paul: tell me - if i prove that you are wrong about 1989, will you reconsider all your other negative comments about america etc?
stubborn_guy: Sorry, I misread, 1986
stubborn_guy: For the others, there was request for US assistance.
stubborn_guy: The US should not have offered
paul: US didn't offer
paul: they were just rung up and asked for assistance
paul: they got it
stubborn_guy: I meant agreed
paul: problem solved
paul: that's ridiculous
stubborn_guy: That was wrong in my mind
paul: you'd rather the rebel military won?
stubborn_guy: I would rather the Philippines slug it out
paul: would you rather your daughter slug it out with 5 rapists?
stubborn_guy: Frankly, no. But it would be a clean way of knowing what the Filipino people would want
paul: i know what your daughter thinks of being raped
stubborn_guy: And by the way, a civil war does not only concern itself about rape
paul: and i know what the majority of libyan people think of gaddafi
paul: there's a very good reason why gaddafi didn't hold free and fair elections
paul: he knows he would lose them
stubborn_guy: They can think all they want. But if the military which is maintained by the children of the civilian populace does not believe in what the ordinary people think, no change will occur.
paul: what if he hires foreign mercenaries??
paul: and gives them the best weapons
stubborn_guy: That is a different story.
stubborn_guy: Mercenaries are individual -- not gov't entities.
stubborn_guy: But mercenaries should be condemned
stubborn_guy: That would still mean civilian interference from another country
stubborn_guy: They obviously have passports and belong to a country.
stubborn_guy: Now, take for example, if I am not mistaken, Blackwater.
stubborn_guy: It is a private security group from the US.
stubborn_guy: I believe there are scandals concerning them.
paul: in the current case, gaddafi has hired more-trustworthy foreign mercs from Chad etc
paul: given that there is ALREADY foreign interference, do you accept foreign interference on the side of the good guys?
stubborn_guy: It is sooooo difficult to pass judgment on today's situations. It has been ingrained since long time ago that interference is acceptable.
paul: i wish!
paul: i wish i lived in a world where it was ingrained to protect women from rape no matter where in the world they may be
stubborn_guy: You see, that was how WWI started.
paul: and if that means interfering in another country's affairs, so be it
paul: don't you have an innate desire to protect women?
stubborn_guy: It was first a dispute between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. Then Russia sided with Serbia, then Germany sided with Austria. Then France sided with Serbia, soon countries were siding and interfering as the war was spilling over to everywhere.
paul: if a libyan woman was to look you in the eyes and say "why didn't you help me when i was being raped by my own government", would you answer her "because ... (justification)"???
stubborn_guy: That is the point I am trying to make. It is not good.
paul: WWI the free world wasn't as strong as it is now. now we can see the light at the end of the tunnel
stubborn_guy: If I were a foreigner in Libya and on my own, sure, I would.
stubborn_guy: But the Libyan woman would not expect anyone outside of Libya to help if that were norm of the day
paul: if the libyan woman DOES have that expectation, and you don't, what would you say?
stubborn_guy: Sorry, you are on your own.
paul: my understanding of men is that there is an innate desire to protect women
stubborn_guy: Harsh as it may seem
paul: it is noble
paul: a duty
stubborn_guy: To some
paul: it's not a universal trait of men?
stubborn_guy: But men too are the very people who defile women
paul: only women outside of their tribal protection
stubborn_guy: They bury them alive, they burn them, they rape them.....
paul: only for outside tribes
stubborn_guy: Not true
stubborn_guy: Chinese emperors are known to bury their concubines/wives alive when they die
stubborn_guy: Same with Egyptian pharoahs
paul: hmmm, let me put it a different way - there is a group that is protected from your average rapist. e.g. they normally won't rape their mothers
stubborn_guy: You have a thinking that all humans follow all norms.
stubborn_guy: Well, there are serial killers and rapists
paul: that's a good quote - how about this:
stubborn_guy: They do not respect any boundaries of family or tribe
paul: even though all humans don't follow all norms, we have an expectation that the collective government should be pressured to follow all norms
paul: ?
stubborn_guy: Yes, but who sets these norms? In Papua New Guinea, cannibalism is a norm. The western world thinks it is not and so they have laws against it.
paul: that's why we have war
paul: to see who sets the norms
paul: anglo-saxons have nearly succeeded
stubborn_guy: It Utah (US), some conservative Mormons practise polygamy but the US gov't does not subscribe to it and has laws against it.
stubborn_guy: Correct. Anglo-Saxons set the stage of norms
stubborn_guy: But those are based on Christian norms. Try establishing those Anglo-Saxon norms over the Shariah norms and let us see if they are acceptable in the Arab world
paul: again - that's why we have/need war - i want shariah to be defeated one way or the otther
paul: so do most iranians
stubborn_guy: Interesting concept
paul: but not all
paul: anglo-saxons have been attempting to spread their norms for centuries (as i see it)
stubborn_guy: Again, it is up to the people of the country to decide what they accept or not accept.
paul: the people of each country are divided
stubborn_guy: As for the Arab world, they would not want to get rid of Shariah
stubborn_guy: Then what good will outside interference be?
paul: thus even if we only have 5% support, it's very simply to provide arms to that 5% and they will enforce non-shariah
paul: i would arm the minority if necessary
stubborn_guy: Nah....That will leave your defenseless women and children no peace of mind
stubborn_guy: They will always have to sleep with one eye opened
paul: i start by supporting countries like iraq/libya because i know it is much simpler - arm the MAJORITY
paul: wrong - that 5% protect women as per norm
stubborn_guy: But those majorities do not have Shariah as part of the change they are looking for
paul: i want to protect defenseless women
paul: fuck the majority
paul: if the majority vote for hitler to gas jews, fuck germans too
stubborn_guy: Ha! That is not what I want. Sorry, no can do
stubborn_guy: I do not want a prolonged war.
paul: it won't be prolonged
stubborn_guy: with outside interference
paul: automatic weapons are fantastic
stubborn_guy: Nope, look Iraq and Afghanistan.
stubborn_guy: US can never get out of them
stubborn_guy: So, would nuclear warheads
paul: in iraq and afghanistan, they decided to do nation-building
paul: look at philippines 1989
paul: US did get out
stubborn_guy: Philippines was left to its own devises.
paul: after helping the filipinos in 1989, they were booted out
stubborn_guy: The US did not interfere except when requested
paul: right - so?
stubborn_guy: Iraq and Afghanistan, US is involved in everything
paul: US is getting out of both afghanistan and iraq
paul: nation-building is tough
paul: no need to do that in libya
paul: watch libya
paul: foreign interference will be swift and brief
paul: do you doubt that?
stubborn_guy: Nation building is tough because the people do not believe in the interference in the first place
paul: that's not true according to polls
paul: i have talked directly to earnest afghans
stubborn_guy: I doubt it that it would be swift and brief
paul: would you like to talk to a real afghan in afghanistan?
stubborn_guy: If Chad mercenaries are going in, expect chaos.
stubborn_guy: Then Libya may deteriorate like Sudan and then the world will be in it for the long haul
paul: how about this
paul: i believe libya will be won quickly
stubborn_guy: Ok
paul: gaddafi will be overthrown in a matter of days/weeks
stubborn_guy: Sure.
paul: there will be no civil war after that
stubborn_guy: Then a minority will rule to dominate over the majority.
paul: libya will look like e.g. morocco
stubborn_guy: Then another Khadaffi will rise again
paul: no, there won't be a minority rule
paul: there will be a democracy
stubborn_guy: Keep dreaming
paul: that is my dream which i expect to come true
paul: if my dream comes true, will you admit you were wrong?
stubborn_guy: Yes, I will admit that I was wrong about Libya. But I will still think that foreign interference is still wrong
paul: hmmmm. i only wanted the former to do the latter.
stubborn_guy: We can always dream for the better could we?
paul: you're a tough man to convince. i'll have to have a think about it
stubborn_guy: hahahahah...
stubborn_guy: Although, I would admit, I admire that you have the courage to do what you believe in.
paul: do you mind if i share this conversation?
paul: i'll mask the name
stubborn_guy: I commend you for that
stubborn_guy: Yes.
stubborn_guy: Do not share my name please, but you may share the conversation.
paul: thanks
stubborn_guy: It is a healthy dialogue
paul: yeah, the clash of ideologies is happening right here
stubborn_guy: correct
paul: and i'm obviously a supporter of the anglo-saxon ideology
stubborn_guy: Man believes in whatever he would like to believe in (collectively)
paul: (roughly speaking)
paul: while you represent the damned russians
stubborn_guy: It is what we are used to
stubborn_guy: I do not go with the norm in terms of philosophy.

paul: one good thing - i'm prepared to pick up a weapon to spread my ideology
paul: you are not prepared to pick up a weapon to stop me
paul: and are only willing to verbally attack from the sidelines

paul: so i will win so long as the anglo-saxons can learn to put cotton buds in their damned ears
stubborn_guy: HAHHAHAHA.
paul: am i right?
stubborn_guy: There are a lot of things in this world as it is now that I do not believe in.
stubborn_guy: I am sure eventually, the anglo-saxon norm will win. Whether naturally or as a consequence of having it forced down people's throats.
stubborn_guy: I prefer the natural way of course
paul: cool. and i promise that after victory, I'll say "I'm really sorry about all that forcing - you were right and i was wrong, and i promise never to do it again". deal?
paul: (in return for you not picking up a weapon)
stubborn_guy: Don't get me wrong, I am not against the US. I do not believe the US should be the police of the world.
paul: i don't believe the US should be either
paul: it should be the damned australians
stubborn_guy: Deal
stubborn_guy: My opinion about Australia, is that it is the US equivalent in the Pacific
paul: it shouldn't be just the pacific
paul: the pacific is boring
stubborn_guy: But that is what it is today
paul: australia was in iraq too, you know?
stubborn_guy: yes
paul: we should have been leading that charge
paul: not just an "also ran"
stubborn_guy: correct.
paul: as an individual, i try to lead the "charge of the grassroots"
stubborn_guy: But the US ran the theatre
paul: because if it's one thing i hate it's people saying that i support bush
paul: when it's bush who supported me
paul: or indepedent actors, whatever
stubborn_guy: Grassroots is the way to go. That means you are convincing the people that will supply both military and gov't with future leaders
paul: i have wanted to clean up the world since i was about 15 years old
paul: right - i'm doing grassroots via my blog
stubborn_guy: I applaud you as other people are afraid to do so

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