Almighty Analogies

On 24th Feb when it looked like the rebels were heading for a slam dunk with massive defections, there were some interesting analogies. Analogies that look back to 9/11 and the appropriate response to that.

Gaddafi said "all reporters will be treated as Al Qaeda terrorists". This left it to the US to point out that "just because some reporters are terrorists doesn't mean that all reporters are terrorists". A direct analogy to when it was Muslims in the firing line after 9/11. In fact, I deliberately adopted (a reformed version of) Islam just so that I could plead with the Christian world as to what was wrong with Mu'tazilah Islam that would give them reason for concern. To force the debate to more specific terms.

The next one was the fact that westerners were trapped in Libya and needed to get out or else they could be used as hostages. I made the following points:

1. Brave Arab Muslims (the rebels) will come to your rescue, and some will die as they try to assist you (Americans). Please remember to thank them profusely when they arrive. Perhaps give them some flowers. They are willing to spill their blood to protect you.

2. If some fellow hostages die during the rescue attempt, please know that it was an accident unlike Gaddafi who was deliberatly trying to get you killed. Prepare yourself for war casualties, as that is inevitable given the limits of the liberation technology.

3. Once you are liberated, would the US Protestants please refrain from killing the US Catholics (like we see in Northern Ireland sometimes) and vice-versa, and regardless, please do not blame the act of liberation for what is in reality American religious bigotry.

Obviously this is an analogy for the Iraq war. In that case it was Americans protecting good Arab Muslims. Now the tables were turned.

As it was, I was kept so busy keeping up with the war that the hostages were all rescued before the rebels got there, so I lost my opportunity for a timely blog post. But that's what I had in my mind at the time. Basically God Almighty was constructing an analogy for us to follow. Note that all these constructed things are pre-determined. There were times when I would see I was about to complete some major tweet or somesuch and the time was midnight or something else obviously a setup. I could sit and watch it going down, and being able to say "something signficant is going to happen at midnight, and it will be an analogy, and I can nominally object to the setup using my free will, but instead it is predictable what I will do in response to this stimuli, as I will not betray the drive for freedom". I found that reality quite amusing.

Also, I was being challenged at exactly the right time so that I was forced to verbalize my philosophy to those who didn't think the same way. Here is one particularly important one, where I showed that the same trade-off with car crashes I expected the Iraqis to make, also equally applies to British (I censored a little bit of the conversation to avoid revealing the guy):

Session Start: Sat Feb 26 06:56:31 2011
[06:56] [him] too crowded to talk out there
[06:56] [him] wuts it?
[06:56] [paul] you have let's say 100 UK citizens in tripoli
[06:56] [paul] tripoli airport
[06:57] [him] right
[06:57] [him] it's more tho
[06:57] [him] anyway
[06:57] [him] wut
[06:57] [paul] in the next month, in the UK, there will probably be 1000 people die on the roads or something
[06:57] [him] probably
[06:57] [paul] i can look up the figures
[06:57] [paul] why don't you just ban cars for one month and save all those lives?
[06:57] [him] b/c those are undirected events
[06:57] [paul] instead of jeapordizing your entire foreign policy for 100 in tripoli?
[06:57] [him] no human agency deliberately caused those to occur
[06:58] [him] that's the difference
[06:58] [paul] pardon? you allowed private car travel
[06:58] [paul] why not make that illegal?
[06:58] [paul] innocent children die
[06:58] [paul] babies
[06:58] [him] Look at the twin towers, 3000 - 4000 people died.
[06:58] [paul] who didn't choose to get into that car
[06:58] [paul] they were forced to
[06:58] [him] Why not ban all air travel?
[06:58] [paul] exactly!
[06:58] [him] Going by your reasoning
[06:58] [him] It's bullshit logic paul.
[06:58] [paul] human activity is inherently risky
[06:59] [paul] no it isn't
[06:59] [paul] yours is bullshit
[06:59] [paul] getting tripoli liberated is far more important than getting to granny's a little bit faster
[06:59] [paul] catch the damned train
[06:59] [him] It depends
[06:59] [him] entirely on the numbers
[06:59] [him] it really does
[07:00] [paul] fine. let me look up the figures for UK road toll
[07:00] [him] No, you mistake my point
[07:00] [him] I'm referring to something quite a bit more abstract.
[07:00] [him] Human activity has risks.
[07:01] [him] Some we control directly. e.g. Foreign Policy.
[07:01] [paul] The total number of deaths in road accidents fell by 7 per cent to 2,946 in 2007 from 3,172 in 2006. However, the number of fatalities has remained fairly constant over the last ten years.
[07:01] [paul] http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1208
[07:01] [him] You're completely missing the point.
[07:01] [paul] 264/month are the figures
[07:01] [him] Some we don't control directly. e.g. people getting heart attacks from eating MacDonalds all the time.
[07:01] [paul] you control the road policy too!!!
[07:01] [paul] ban cars
[07:01] [paul] mcdonalds is less practical
[07:02] [paul] but you CAN BAN CARS
[07:02] [him] No, you don't, b/c the benefits FAR exceed the disadvantages.
[07:02] [paul] what happened to the sanctity of fucking life?
[07:02] [paul] how much is a life worth?
[07:02] [him] Life isn't sacred!
[07:02] [him] It has a price.
[07:02] [paul] what are those benefits of getting to granny's so damned fast?
[07:02] [him] time?
[07:02] [paul] just ring her up
[07:02] [paul] you're trading human life for time?
[07:02] [him] Yes
[07:02] [him] Large amounts of it.
[07:02] [paul] why not listen to the ipod on the train?
[07:03] [him] paul
[07:03] [paul] people like listening to music
[07:03] [him] Listen carefully, you're not considering the opportunity costs of what you're purposing.
[07:03] [him] That's the problem.
[07:03] [him] If we ban cars.
[07:03] [him] The economy is fucked.
[07:03] [him] Money, Time, everything reduces.
[07:03] [him] That IS worth people's lives.
[07:04] [him] We know this, because we drive cars everyday.
[07:04] [paul] tell me - if those UK citizens in the tripoli airport could read this, and found that THEY PERSONALLY were jeapordizing the freedom of the people of tripoli - what would they say?
[07:04] [him] We know there's a chance of dying.
[07:04] [him] But it is small in comparsion to the net gain.
[07:04] [him] They would probably like to get out of there.
[07:04] [him] Once they are.
[07:04] [paul] hey - i don't mind if you want to save time. i'm not saying ban cars
[07:04] [him] The UK has more free action.
[07:05] [him] The possibilites for the UK to take action, increase if their citizens are not between them and Gaddafi
[07:05] [paul] what if those UK citizens in tripoli were heavily guarded - no way to free them, not allowed to leave
[07:05] [paul] guaranteed death if you act
[07:05] [paul] what would they say now?
[07:05] [him] Then I wouldn't invade Libya.
[07:05] [paul] what would THEY say?
[07:05] [him] I'd let the Libyans kill off Gaddafi
[07:05] [him] They wouldn't say fuck all
[07:05] [paul] let's say 100 UK hostages
[07:06] [paul] if they could speak
[07:06] [him] they have no say in the matter
[07:06] [paul] and knew that libyans were dying because of them
[07:06] [paul] what would they say IF they had a voice?
[07:06] [paul] i know what I would say in that circumstance
[07:06] [him] I've no idea.
[07:06] [him] Probably different things
[07:06] [him] no, you do not.
[07:06] [paul] I'm FUCKING BRITISH
[07:06] [him] Because it's not about the people in the airport.
[07:07] [him] It's about the political fallout.
[07:07] [paul] I'd rather have London razed to the fucking ground than give in to a fucker like gaddafi
[07:07] [him] that would occur if they died.
[07:07] [paul] fuck political fallout
[07:07] [him] You're OTT.
[07:07] [paul] i'd rather lose the fucking election if i was cameron
[07:07] [him] Everything has a price.
[07:07] [him] These options are Zero Sum.
[07:07] [him] Go one way, or the other.
[07:07] [him] No way back.
[07:07] [him] We don't know the future
[07:07] [him] so we have to put a price on our options.
[07:08] [him] i.e. a weight
[07:08] [paul] yes - and if the UK citizens have devolved to the point where cameron is kicked out rather than being praised - well, worse things have happened - even churchill was kicked out after winning fucking ww2!
[07:08] [him] You would like Gaddafi to be removed from power.
[07:08] [him] I agree.
[07:08] [paul] the british are sometimes crazy
[07:08] [paul] listen - it's very simple
[07:08] [him] But not at any cost to me.
[07:08] [paul] if i have a vote
[07:08] [paul] and i'm one of the hostages
[07:08] [paul] you can fucking kill me in cold blood if it means rescuing the libyan people
[07:08] [him] sure thing
[07:09] [him] you're entitled to your opinion
[07:09] [him] My point is:
[07:09] [paul] right here, right now, i'm happy to go to the local police station and be killed in fucking cold blood if it means NATO planes or even just UK planes in the fucking air
[07:09] [him] UK doesn't really lose if a couple thousand more Libyans die.
[07:09] [paul] then respect my opinion!
[07:09] [him] Ok
[07:09] [him] I do.
[07:09] [paul] and don't assume it is 0% of the citizens there
[07:09] [him] But I don't believe it reflects the situation.
[07:09] [paul] it's x% of the citizens there
[07:09] [paul] and i suspect that x is pretty fucking close to 100
[07:09] [paul] if i know the british people
[07:09] [him] I'll repeat myself.
[07:10] [him] Uk doesn't lose if a few thousand more Libyans die.
[07:10] [him] That's just how it is.
[07:10] [him] Trade between Libya and UK is absolutely tiny.
[07:10] [him] Apart from a bit of oil
[07:10] [him] All oil from Libya is 2% of world output
[07:10] [him] UK gets tiny fraction of that.
[07:10] [him] That's pretty much all the trade.
[07:10] [paul] hang on - are you speaking for yourself or the majority of british?
[07:11] [him] The country itself.
[07:11] [paul] when you say you want the libyans freed at no cost
[07:11] [him] No.
[07:11] [him] There's still a cost.
[07:11] [him] Your soliders could die.
[07:11] [paul] [him] But not at any cost to me.
[07:11] [paul] what do you mean by this statement please?
[07:11] [him] But that's less important by far than civilians being caught in the middle.
[07:12] [him] *any cost* --> there's an upper limit, a price, on what we can do.
[07:12] [paul] please bear in mind that even if it australians in the airport, i don't treat them infinitely more important than the people of tripoli
[07:12] [him] Don't have infinite power or resources.
[07:12] [paul] of course i would choose an australian over a libyan all other things being equal
[07:12] [him] Let me give you a history lesson
[07:12] [paul] and if i was forced to choose one
[07:12] [him] You remember Rwanda?
[07:13] [him] Rwanda?
[07:13] [paul] yes
[07:13] [him] Horrible situation
[07:13] [him] ok
[07:13] [him] Now, why did nobody give a shit until it got unbelievably awful?
[07:13] [him] It wasn't about information
[07:13] [him] We had lots of information
[07:14] [him] The reason was economic.
[07:14] [him] They don't trade with us.
[07:14] [paul] because the problem of one set of racist blacks picking up machettes an killing another set of racist blacks is not an easily solvable problem and isn't militarily solvable either
[07:14] [him] So, they don't exist on the map economically.
[07:14] [him] Yes it is!
[07:14] [paul] if you REALLY want to solve that problem, i can tell you how to stop blacks from being racist
[07:14] [him] Different Topic!
[07:14] [paul] that is the solution to that problem
[07:15] [paul] it's physically impossible for the UK military to stop blacks from killing their neighbours
[07:15] [him] the final solution *was* to send in troops
[07:15] [paul] no military solution to that problem
[07:15] [paul] trust me
[07:15] [him] er, they did
[07:15] [paul] a military can't stop that
[07:15] [him] they sent in troops
[07:15] [him] I know in the long term, yes
[07:15] [paul] AFTER the killing
[07:15] [him] Yeah
[07:15] [paul] and only to stop the propaganda
[07:15] [him] easier
[07:15] [him] But this just goes to show my point.
[07:15] [paul] you can't stop your fucking neighbour from killing you
[07:15] [him] If you want the world to be a better place man
[07:16] [him] You got to have trade between countries.
[07:16] [paul] if you REALLY want to solve that problem, you need to INTERNALIZE anti-racism
[07:16] [him] that's just life.
[07:16] [paul] we already have friggin trade
[07:16] [paul] even with friggin dictators
[07:16] [him] No, we don't really
[07:16] [paul] so friggin what?
[07:16] [him] tiny amounts
[07:16] [him] pitiful amounts of money
[07:16] [him] mere billions
[07:24] [paul] if i was living there, i wouldn't want sanctions on myself
[07:24] [him] Neither am I.
[07:24] [paul] either liberate me or go fuck yourself
[07:24] [him] This may be hard for you to believe. But that guy did get into power through popular action.
[07:24] [paul] people make mistakes
[07:24] [him] i.e. people were pleased he got into power
[07:24] [him] Yeah
[07:25] [paul] the sins of the father shouldn't be passed onto the son
[07:25] [him] Yes, but this is only apparent recently.
[07:25] [paul] because that assumes that an innocent baby is born with blood on its hands
[07:25] [paul] which is a disgusting concept
[07:25] [him] There's lots of countries which horriable records of human rights abuse paul
[07:25] [him] The USA for one.
[07:26] [him] let me show you something
[07:26] [paul] records or current?
[07:26] [paul] i have little interest in records
[07:26] [paul] i can potentially do something about the current
[07:26] [him] in the 1950s - 1980s
[07:26] [paul] fuck then
[07:26] [paul] 2011
[07:26] [paul] tell me about that
[07:26] [paul] or just say "america is fantastic"
[07:27] [him] You're all over the place.
[07:27] [paul] i am?
[07:27] [him] yeah
[07:27] [paul] if you have examples of human rights abuses in america, then give me a 2011 example
[07:27] [paul] or maybe 2010
[07:27] [him] you bounce from conclusion to conclusion very quickly
[07:27] [paul] please, do you have one or not?
[07:27] [paul] 2010
[07:27] [paul] 2011
[07:27] [him] which is more important, arguing with me, or figuring out a practical solution to Libya?
[07:28] [paul] the latter
[07:28] [him] excatly
[07:28] [paul] but i believe you are the path to the latter
[07:28] [him] I'm not even UK!
[07:28] [paul] doesn't matter
[07:28] [paul] ideas are universal
[07:28] [him] Can't help you invade Libya
[07:28] [paul] don't be so sure of that. :-)
[07:28] [him] Have no guns or will to do so personally.
[07:28] [paul] i have friends in high places. :-)
[07:28] [paul] doesn't need to be
[07:28] [paul] civilians make these decisions
[07:29] [him] That's why I have LOIC and email hacking of libya stuff
[07:29] [paul] we have militaries under civilian control
[07:29] [him] that's my $0.02
[07:29] [him] I can't do much more than that.
[07:29] [paul] you can
[07:29] [him] I was outside the Iranian embassy protesting.
[07:29] [him] Nevermind me, what are you doing?
[07:29] [paul] you can write to your government and ask them to send your military
[07:29] [paul] to libya
[07:29] [paul] i already wrote to my government
[07:29] [paul] want to see proof?
[07:29] [him] no
[07:30] [him] It would reveal your government and nationality
[07:30] [him] We are Anonymous
[07:30] [paul] i wrote to other governments too
[07:30] [paul] so you can't be sure. :-)
[07:30] [him] I geninuely doubt that.
[07:30] [paul] pardon?
[07:31] [him] You're saying you wrote letters to a bunch of goverments.
[07:31] [paul] sure
[07:31] [paul] germany:
[07:31] [paul] http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com/2011/02/libyan-genocide.html
[07:31] [paul] egypt:
[07:31] [paul] http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com/2011/02/egypt-send-weapons-now.html
[07:31] [him] No dude.
[07:31] [him] These are not the same thing
[07:31] [paul] UK:
[07:31] [paul] http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com/2011/02/david-be-goliath.html
[07:32] [him] open letters are just like blog posts
[07:32] [paul] i logged on to their websites
[07:32] [him] I mean, an actual letter to their embassy
[07:32] [paul] embassy? i logged on to their website in the actual country!!!
[07:32] [him] i.e. their official line of communications
[07:32] [paul] that is official!
[07:32] [paul] anyhow, forget friggin embassies, what about australia?
[07:33] [paul] http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com/2011/02/libya-now.html
[07:33] [paul] even the opposition party in australia:
[07:33] [paul] http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com/2011/02/tony-take-charge.html
[07:33] [paul] i ran out of ideas at that point
[07:33] [him] look "Paul Edwards", even a glance your letters lack the correct form of language to require a response.
[07:33] [paul] what's wrong with the one to julia?
[07:34] [him] that's not how you do this kind of business
[07:34] [paul] http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com/2011/02/libya-now.html
[07:34] [him] It's undiplomatic.
[07:34] [paul] cut and paste a line from there please
[07:34] [paul] show me something undiplomatic there please
[07:34] [him] P.S. Angela. Planes. Air. Now
[07:34] [paul] that's to a foreign government
[07:34] [him] -> "P.S. Angela. Planes. Air. Now" <-
[07:34] [paul] show me what i said to australian PM
[07:34] [him] Disrespectful
[07:34] [paul] fuck germany
[07:34] [paul] show me australia
[07:34] [him] I don't know b/c I haven't read your letter to her.
[07:34] [him] Nor do I wish to.
[07:34] [paul] then please do
[07:34] [paul] why not? you are making a claim
[07:35] [him] Because you write, to be frank, like a nut-job.
[07:35] [him] You make sweeping generalisations
[07:35] [paul] you're making a claim about something you haven't even read
[07:35] [him] You don't use the right kind of language
[07:35] [paul] and refuse to read
[07:35] [paul] it will take 5 minutes for you to read it
[07:35] [him] I read your letter to Angela
[07:35] [paul] http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com/2011/02/libya-now.html
[07:35] [him] the head of german government
[07:35] [paul] that's germany
[07:35] [paul] i'm asking you about australia
[07:36] [paul] the one government that i nominally am meant to be able to influence
[07:36] [him] I don't have to read your letter paul
[07:36] [paul] i expect germans to write nice letters - in german - to their government
[07:36] [paul] not a fucking australian
[07:36] [him] I've already read one.
[07:36] [him] I'm telling you now, that will never be read by her.
[07:36] [him] That should be a problem for you.
[07:36] [him] If you're taking this seriously.
[07:36] [paul] are you saying that based on ONE email to a GERMAN you know ALL my letters?
[07:36] [him] And your talk on the IRC
[07:36] [him] I mean, you are acting very showy in your behavior
[07:37] [him] But it is offputting
[07:37] [him] To the Anons
[07:37] [paul] the german one was more hyperbole
[07:37] [paul] read the one to the UK
[07:37] [him] And to anybody reading the letters
[07:37] [him] They won't take your seriously if you continue
[07:37] [paul] him - then write your own letters!
[07:37] [paul] the way you think it should be done!
[07:37] [him] They'll call you a keyboard warrior
[07:37] [paul] is that asking too much?
[07:37] [him] That's not how I roll personally
[07:37] [paul] keyboard warrior? as opposed to what?
[07:37] [him] b/c I believe even doing the right way is utterly ineffective.
[07:38] [paul] the military is under civilian control
[07:38] [paul] the problem is with civilians
[07:38] [him] not in all cases, but in this one
[07:38] [paul] not lack of real warriors
[07:38] [paul] if the right way is ineffective, then it doesn't matter that i was impolite to a fucking kraut
[07:38] [him] Man, you're like a guy with a Square Hammer banging at a Round Peg to get it into a Trianglar hole!
[07:39] [him] Seriously, what is your age?
[07:39] [paul] hey, i have done exactly that in the past
[07:39] [paul] called MVS/380
[07:39] [paul] want to see it?
[07:39] [paul] http://mvs380.sourceforge.net
[07:39] [paul] they said it was impossible
[07:39] [paul] they had good reason to think it was impossible in fact
[07:39] [paul] and told me that i wasn't listening
[07:39] [paul] to my superiors
[07:39] [paul] because indeed, they had more knowledge than me
[07:40] [him] I'm sure you're a fine coder, most Anons are, but that's beside the point.
[07:40] [him] That was code.
[07:40] [him] This is politics.
[07:40] [paul] hey, politics i have done too
[07:40] [paul] or at least philosophy
[07:40] [paul] but it's beyond people's comprehension
[07:40] [paul] so i can't make traction
[07:40] [paul] just like aristarchus
[07:42] [paul] hello? you're very interesting to talk to. i hope you can excuse my hyperbole, it's just my natural style.
[07:42] [him] paul, you're too quick to give out certain information
[07:42] [paul] such as?
[07:42] [him] already I'm relatively sure I know where you live, but I won't say it on an IRC.
[07:42] [him] albeit I'm sure you wouldn't care
[07:42] [him] others do
[07:42] [paul] exactly
[07:43] [him] b/c the IRC is being watched
[07:43] [paul] so?
[07:43] [paul] i live in a free country
[07:43] [him] You'll going to get yourself into trouble
[07:43] [him] Sure
[07:43] [him] But even in free countries, there's problem people.
[07:43] [paul] if i'm afraid to give my name in a free country, then what right do i have to suggest that iranians etc physically revolt?
[07:43] [paul] in trouble for WHAT?
[07:43] [paul] what have i done?
[07:44] [paul] (or australian soldiers for that matter)
[07:44] [him] Anonymous, not now, but in the future, could be listed as a terrorist organisation.
[07:44] [him] That could quite easily occur.
[07:44] [paul] hmmm. well it wasn't at the time i joined
[07:44] [him] A country that is free, doesn't nessacarily remain so.
[07:44] [him] These IRC logs will be stored forever.
[07:45] [him] You know what happened over the last century?
[07:45] [paul] specifically?
[07:45] [him] 2 world wars, a shit load of smaller ones
[07:45] [paul] sure
[07:45] [him] i.e. Shit Happens
[07:45] [him] and when it does in the 21st century, Anonymous are likely to be caught up in it.
[07:45] [him] Thus, be careful
[07:45] [paul] so you think they will retrospectively arrest anons for just being anons?
[07:45] [paul] that's illegal here
[07:46] [paul] you can't make retrospective laws
[07:46] [him] I think we gain our power from being Anonymous.
[07:46] [him] because we are an unknown Factor.
[07:46] [paul] ok, so - i don't mind what you do
[07:46] [paul] but this is a public forum
[07:46] [him] It gives us license and authority that we would not have without that.
[07:46] [paul] and you know well that everything is being monitored
[07:46] [him] well, not really
[07:46] [him] public as in open
[07:47] [paul] anyone can log on and see any chat room
[07:47] [him] not public as in not run by a specific group
[07:47] [him] e.g. usenet
[07:47] [him] You're currently an Anon, that is too happy to be non-anonymous
[07:47] [paul] i certainly understand the concept of not wanting to give out personal info
[07:47] [him] that worries the others.
[07:48] [him] b/c they are doing some serious shit
[07:48] [him] You get Five Fucking Years for DDOSing
[07:48] [him] you know this?
[07:48] [him] five years, in jail
[07:48] [paul] no, i didn't know that
[07:48] [paul] but i don't do ddos
[07:48] [him] nobody wants that to occur to them
[07:48] [him] so they are Anonymous
[07:48] [paul] and i'm not reporting ddosers
[07:48] [paul] or anything
[07:48] [him] sure, but that gives you an idea of the gravity of the situation
[07:48] [paul] i am just giving ideas
[07:49] [him] one day, we will likely wind up attacking a government network that is in the west today
[07:49] [him] that seems inevitable
[07:49] [him] since they're bound to fuck up some time
[07:49] [him] and we're bound to do something about it
[07:49] [paul] can i sincerely suggest that you only ddos dictators?
[07:49] [him] But we can only have that power, if we are Anonymous
[07:49] [him] otherwise it's not an option
[07:49] [paul] if a jury finds you guilty for attacking gaddafi, well fuck me dead, what has this country come to?
[07:50] [him] You really do think in Black and White, huh
[07:50] [paul] and if you're attacking democracies - well perhaps you deserve 5 years?
[07:50] [paul] him - is rape good or bad?
[07:50] [him] Dictatorships have come from Democracies before now.
[07:50] [him] Nazis for example
[07:50] [paul] him - is rape good or bad?
[07:50] [him] Voted into power.
[07:50] [paul] him - is rape good or bad?
[07:50] [him] What's your point excatly?
[07:51] [paul] is the answer nuanced or black & white?
[07:51] [him] Well, we reduce it to a black-white situation in Law, yes. But in reality, it's a big grey area.
[07:51] [paul] rape is a grey area?
[07:51] [him] Law requires things to be black and white.
[07:51] [him] Hell yeah
[07:51] [him] There's all kinds of grey area there.
[07:51] [paul] i'm talking a stranger abducting a 7 year old girl, and raping her
[07:52] [him] There's all kinds of rapes.
[07:52] [him] That's one of the more extreme versions
[07:52] [paul] ie vaginal penetration plus anal penetration
[07:52] [paul] is that act good or bad or nuanced?
[07:52] [him] okai, Ima leaving now
[07:52] [him] This is pointless
[07:52] [paul] because you think black and white yourself sometimes?
[07:52] No such nick/channel
Session Close: Sat Feb 26 07:55:40 2011

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