Debate Continues

Here is the latest status of the attempt to get the anti-war to switch to pro-war. You can decide who has the better argument.

[2013-08-21 02:21:54] *** kerravon86 added Heathen Heart ***
[2013-08-21 02:22:23] kerravon86: hello Max. Here is Julia
[2013-08-21 02:22:37] julia12: hi
[2013-08-21 02:22:49] Heathen Heart: hello Julia ^^
[2013-08-21 02:23:07] julia12: hi max, where you from?
[2013-08-21 02:23:18] Heathen Heart: I am from Germany, and you?
[2013-08-21 02:23:30] julia12: Philippines.
[2013-08-21 02:23:50] Heathen Heart: Oh, that's far away :D
[2013-08-21 02:24:34] julia12: can you tell me something about yourself
[2013-08-21 02:26:07] Heathen Heart: Sure! I am 16 and visit the high school. My hobbies are reading, playing
video games, visiting rock concerts or just hanging around with friends ^^
[2013-08-21 02:26:21] julia12: :)
[2013-08-21 02:26:40] Heathen Heart: I am interested in History, politics, music and various other things
[2013-08-21 02:26:48] Heathen Heart: tell me something about you, too? :P
[2013-08-21 02:27:19] julia12: i love playing video games too, i play guitar (acoustic) and love to hang
around with friends
[2013-08-21 02:27:46] Heathen Heart: ah, nice. I am about to learn to play acoustic guitar :)
[2013-08-21 02:28:39] julia12: i could say that you are my male counterpart. we share lots of interests
[2013-08-21 02:29:09] Heathen Heart: haha, indeed :)
[2013-08-21 02:30:42] julia12: i believe Paul has showed you some document, did you read it so far?
[2013-08-21 02:31:23] Heathen Heart: yes, I did. it was very interesting and I agree on many topics
[2013-08-21 02:32:15] julia12: can you tell me how you understand/interpret the document?
[2013-08-21 02:33:35] julia12: im curious how a 16yo boy would react to such topic.
[2013-08-21 02:35:07] julia12: ive added you in my contact list by the way
[2013-08-21 02:37:26] Heathen Heart: Well, I have thought on some issues a few years ago. Doesn't take much
intellect now, does it. First he speaks about pride. It is nonsense to be proud of something which others
achieved, we should be rather proud on something we have achieved individually. It reminded me a bit of
Arthur Schopenhauers quotation against nationalism and I agree. I consider myself as anti-
[2013-08-21 02:41:19] Heathen Heart: Then he explained that it is good to be humanist and act like the golden
rule (not sure if that's the correct name in English) says. Non-humanists, bullies do not act like it. So
there are two fronts: The humanists, which are against the Non-Humanists, which makes them anti-non-
humanists. And the Non-humanists of course. He again shows it with examples of religion, racism, etc.
[2013-08-21 02:41:40] Heathen Heart: -ok, I have to go eat, be back soon-
[2013-08-21 02:42:07] kerravon86: ok, don't close the window please. just come back :)
[2013-08-21 02:42:08] julia12: to sum it up it is good vs bad
[2013-08-21 02:42:14] julia12: are you leaving now?
[2013-08-21 02:42:25] kerravon86: when are you expecting to be back?
[2013-08-21 02:43:32] julia12: i would love to keep in touch with this boy
[2013-08-21 02:43:49] kerravon86: are you having dinner with friends/relatives? you can see if you can
convert them to pro-war too :)
[2013-08-21 02:44:33] julia12: are they anti-war?
[2013-08-21 02:44:40] kerravon86: don't know
[2013-08-21 02:45:02] julia12: and have you just converted Max?
[2013-08-21 02:45:53] kerravon86: Max said this:
[2013-08-21 02:46:41] kerravon86: so my favourite writer, Christopher Hitchens, supported the war. He said it
was worth, because they fought for the human rights, etc and Iraq was a direct thread because of the bombs,
you know. However, I didn't really make up an opinion about it, sadly
[2013-08-21 02:46:55] kerravon86: that was before he read my document
[2013-08-21 02:47:57] julia12: what happens after reading?
[2013-08-21 02:48:32] kerravon86: [02:07:29] Heathen Heart: that's cool stuff
[02:07:38] kerravon86: thanks!
[02:07:43] Heathen Heart: :D
[02:07:47] kerravon86: are you 100% convinced?
[02:08:55] Heathen Heart: hm, I agree on the issues. Nationalism is nonsense, Iraq war was justified, etc
[2013-08-21 02:48:52] julia12: thats it?
[2013-08-21 02:49:11] kerravon86: [02:09:35] kerravon86: that's great. now all we need to do is convince 51%
of Germans about that. any suggestions?
[02:10:53] Heathen Heart: well, looking at the ratings of nationalistic German parties, over 90% are
convincced already :D
[02:11:25] Heathen Heart: you actually get taught in schools that nationalism is bad, because of our history
[02:12:24] kerravon86: why were most germans opposed to the iraq war?
[02:14:05] Heathen Heart: because we are also taught that "war is bad and violence is never a solution", and
"Bush is evil and everything he does" and "evil selfish americans only want the oil"
[2013-08-21 02:49:13] julia12: he agreed base on the issues you presented
[2013-08-21 02:49:40] kerravon86: [02:14:28] kerravon86: what can we do to fix all these terrible thoughts?
[02:15:38] Heathen Heart: educate them. discuss it. put up clever youtube videos.
[02:16:29] kerravon86: the germans are already being "educated" with these bad thoughts. how can we change
the education system in germany?
[02:18:18] Heathen Heart: this is hardly possible. you would have to get into the education ministry, but
every province is having its own
[2013-08-21 02:50:13] kerravon86: he appears to have agreed with the logic in my document. you'll need to ask
him a specific question if you want to know more
[2013-08-21 02:53:52] julia12: do you just need people to agree with your document? everybody will i tell
you. because it was perfect! perfectly logical. but how about educating people about what really happen in
Iraq war? the reasons behind it. the lies. the deaths.money wasted.
[2013-08-21 02:55:15] kerravon86: what "really happened" in the iraq war was that a dictator was replaced
with a democracy, exactly as the US said it would do
[2013-08-21 02:55:42] kerravon86: the guess about WMD is irrelevant. it wasn't a lie, it was a wrong guess.
but again - irrelevant
[2013-08-21 02:56:13] kerravon86: which deaths are you complaining about? deaths by terrorists? you think the
iraqi people should surrender to terrorists?
[2013-08-21 02:57:10] julia12: you are being too logical to the point that you never realize the importance
of love for humans
[2013-08-21 02:57:36] kerravon86: i do love humans. that's why i ended the iraqi holocaust and gave 27
million Iraqis their freedom
[2013-08-21 02:58:41] julia12: they attacked a country bombed all over for a wrong guess??
[2013-08-21 02:59:21] julia12: thousands of people were killed for the wrong guess
[2013-08-21 02:59:44] julia12: trillion of taxpayer's money spent for a wrong guess
[2013-08-21 03:01:36] julia12: how could you say WMD is irrelevant? thats the reason they presented to
people. reason to attack Iraq
[2013-08-21 03:03:15] Heathen Heart: holy crap, that escalated quickly. I just wanted to eat something, come
back and see this (worry)
[2013-08-21 03:03:59] julia12: 27 million people freed, ofcourse they should be happy and kiss America "thank
you"! but how many % of them are happy by the WAY it was achieved?
[2013-08-21 03:07:02] kerravon86: they didn't "bomb all over". they bombed the enemy military
[2013-08-21 03:07:17] kerravon86: and they didn't bomb ONLY because of the wrong guess. there were multiple
reasons to liberate Iraq
[2013-08-21 03:07:37] julia12: that's what they presented!
[2013-08-21 03:07:40] kerravon86: thousands of people were killed by terrorists, not the US military
[2013-08-21 03:07:46] kerravon86: that was ONE of the things that they presented
[2013-08-21 03:07:53] julia12: it didnt came form nowhere. they presented it
[2013-08-21 03:07:59] julia12: from
[2013-08-21 03:08:12] kerravon86: and why do you care about $1 trillion being spent to liberate 27 million
[2013-08-21 03:08:32] kerravon86: if you read what Bush actually said, you will see that it is NOT JUST WMD
[2013-08-21 03:08:48] kerravon86: or speak to any other pro-war person to find out why they supported the war
[2013-08-21 03:09:23] kerravon86: the only way to make sure Iraq had disarmed was to go there and allow
people to speak freely
[2013-08-21 03:09:39] julia12: i always believe that freeing people is a lovely thing to do and would
100%support it. but would it be lovier if it was nicely done??
[2013-08-21 03:09:46] julia12: no lies
[2013-08-21 03:09:51] julia12: no misleading
[2013-08-21 03:09:54] kerravon86: WMD wasn't a lie, it was a guess
[2013-08-21 03:09:57] julia12: no wrong guess
[2013-08-21 03:09:58] kerravon86: and you've got this the wrong way around
[2013-08-21 03:10:05] kerravon86: YOU should be lobbying America to free others
[2013-08-21 03:10:10] julia12: oh, it was a wrong guess
[2013-08-21 03:10:20] kerravon86: instead of expecting America to beg you for permission
[2013-08-21 03:10:58] julia12: is US that ignorant about the nonexistence of WMD?
[2013-08-21 03:11:18] kerravon86: yes. intelligence is always just a "best guess".
[2013-08-21 03:11:29] kerravon86: we needed to make sure iraq had disarmed
[2013-08-21 03:11:33] kerravon86: not just take saddam's word for it
[2013-08-21 03:11:44] kerravon86: and you STILL have this the wrong way around.
[2013-08-21 03:11:51] kerravon86: YOU should have been lobbying America to liberate Iraq
[2013-08-21 03:12:01] julia12: again, it was wrongly done
[2013-08-21 03:12:17] kerravon86: and YOU should introduce every single argument you can think of to try to
get the Americans to take action
[2013-08-21 03:12:21] kerravon86: it was not done wrongly
[2013-08-21 03:12:31] julia12: you can look back at the poll results i showed you
[2013-08-21 03:12:49] kerravon86: the poll results show that US, Iraq etc were divided 50/50 on the issue.
what's your point?
[2013-08-21 03:13:17] julia12: its not 50/50
[2013-08-21 03:13:22] kerravon86: it is close to 50/50
[2013-08-21 03:13:45] kerravon86: regardless, what's your point?
[2013-08-21 03:13:58] julia12: 63% of americans now believes that Iraq war was a mistake
[2013-08-21 03:14:09] kerravon86: and at one point it was 77% in favour
[2013-08-21 03:14:10] julia12: i think survey was done March 7, 2013
[2013-08-21 03:14:25] kerravon86: all that shows is that the majority of americans are mistaken
[2013-08-21 03:14:35] kerravon86: their arguments against war do not stand up to scrutiny
[2013-08-21 03:16:05] julia12: what about you Max, would you love your country to be attacked fr a wrong
[2013-08-21 03:16:20] Heathen Heart: Uh, people noticed I am here still
[2013-08-21 03:16:29] Heathen Heart: no, what a question, of course not
[2013-08-21 03:16:55] kerravon86: Max, if there was a holocaust happening in your country, would you want
external liberators to come in and end it?
[2013-08-21 03:17:17] julia12: in the most tragic way ever Max, how would you love that?
[2013-08-21 03:17:40] julia12: considering you have your loved ones whose going to be at risk
[2013-08-21 03:17:54] Heathen Heart: Hm, well
[2013-08-21 03:18:09] kerravon86: Max, your daugher/sister would have been at risk of being abducted from the
street by Uday and raped
[2013-08-21 03:18:34] kerravon86: what price would you be willing to pay to ensure that rapists like Uday
face justice?
[2013-08-21 03:18:47] julia12: fyi Max, ive spoken to several Iraqis, and they are not happy by the their
freedom is achieved
[2013-08-21 03:19:00] kerravon86: iraqis are divided 50/50 on the issue
[2013-08-21 03:19:17] kerravon86: my purpose of chatting online is to change the 50/50 to 99/1
[2013-08-21 03:19:32] kerravon86: 99% in favour of ending the Iraqi holocaust
[2013-08-21 03:19:38] julia12: im so unlucky to never bumped in any one of those
[2013-08-21 03:19:53] kerravon86: you can read their blogs if you're interested
[2013-08-21 03:20:32] kerravon86: here's another thing to read:
[2013-08-21 03:20:34] kerravon86: http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com.au/2007/06/irc-debate.html
[2013-08-21 03:20:50] kerravon86: what do you think of that link, Max?
[2013-08-21 03:20:54] Heathen Heart: I would consider "war" as the last, but very last way to end such
conflicts. There are other ways, which the UNO is using. But if these don't work, I think, war is necessary.
Voilence should be the last alternative.
[2013-08-21 03:21:36] julia12: perfect! they should try everything first
[2013-08-21 03:21:45] julia12: before attacking a countrry
[2013-08-21 03:21:57] Heathen Heart: agreed
[2013-08-21 03:22:01] Heathen Heart: ^^
[2013-08-21 03:22:08] kerravon86: They did try "everything". they tried asking nicely and they put sanctions
on iraq, which made the people suffer, not the dictator
[2013-08-21 03:22:46] kerravon86: when there's a holocaust in process you should be asking "how quickly can
we get in to end it" rather than saying "use a magic wand to fix everything magically"
[2013-08-21 03:23:21] kerravon86: war should be used whenever it makes sense to use it
[2013-08-21 03:23:25] julia12: is that the most powerfull country can do? what "everything" they tried and
never succeeded considering they have them most sophisticated everything in the world
[2013-08-21 03:23:33] kerravon86: it's not a "last resort". it's a strategy
[2013-08-21 03:23:58] kerravon86: julia, the answer to your question is "yes"
[2013-08-21 03:24:00] julia12: strategy perfectly done is good, but it isnt
[2013-08-21 03:24:39] Heathen Heart: "war should be used whenever it makes sense to use it". Yeah, great.
Problem is that this is not objectively usable at all.
[2013-08-21 03:24:41] kerravon86: there are no good ways to displace a dictator. war is the only thing known
to work. you can try writing to the Syrian dictator and watch him laugh in your face
[2013-08-21 03:24:48] julia12: whoever thinks of using a magic wand is totally insane
[2013-08-21 03:24:58] kerravon86: julia, that makes you insane
[2013-08-21 03:25:06] julia12: haha!
[2013-08-21 03:25:14] kerravon86: you're insisting that there is a magical way of liberating people. there
isn't. war is the solution
[2013-08-21 03:25:25] kerravon86: holocaust is unacceptable. war must be fought
[2013-08-21 03:25:32] julia12: i never thought that being diplomatic is insane thing
[2013-08-21 03:25:38] kerravon86: all good people in the world should unite in a war of liberation
[2013-08-21 03:25:58] kerravon86: julia, diplomacy is insane. try writing to the syrian dictatorship and see
for yourself what happens
[2013-08-21 03:26:08] Heathen Heart: now you sound like Karl Marx :D
[2013-08-21 03:26:28] kerravon86: Marx was an idiot. what's the similarity you see?
[2013-08-21 03:27:22] julia12: i told you, dont experiment on me. im not even .01% of the population who
oppose war and look at life as something worth living
[2013-08-21 03:27:25] Heathen Heart: "Proletarians of all countries, raise! We need a global revolution!
Shake of the shackles of capitalistic suppression!" Maybe he was an idiot, but he made interesting points.
[2013-08-21 03:27:47] kerravon86: capitalism isn't oppression. it's natural
[2013-08-21 03:27:59] julia12: yes Max, Paul has very interesting points
[2013-08-21 03:28:10] julia12: very interesting
[2013-08-21 03:28:19] kerravon86: julia, while ever you have a repugnant view that Uday should be allowed to
rape for as long as he feels like it, I will attack you
[2013-08-21 03:28:24] julia12: again very interesting Max :)
[2013-08-21 03:28:46] kerravon86: Max, we do need a global revolution
[2013-08-21 03:28:59] kerravon86: like we had in eastern europe and recently in Arabia
[2013-08-21 03:29:04] Heathen Heart: I meant Karl ^^
[2013-08-21 03:29:15] julia12: haha!
[2013-08-21 03:29:46] Heathen Heart: jokes aside
[2013-08-21 03:31:08] julia12: Max, can you tell me something about your family? i mean, do you have a good
relationship with your family?
[2013-08-21 03:31:10] kerravon86: Max, are you from East or West Germany?
[2013-08-21 03:31:26] Heathen Heart: Yeah, my relationship to my family is good
[2013-08-21 03:31:40] julia12: thats great!
[2013-08-21 03:31:43] Heathen Heart: And Paul, there is only Germany, you got the wrong generation
[2013-08-21 03:32:05] julia12: who's going to teach you to play guitar?
[2013-08-21 03:32:26] kerravon86: of course i know there's only one Germany now, but I'm interested to know
which side you come from
[2013-08-21 03:33:11] kerravon86: i've been to the berlin wall
[2013-08-21 03:34:01] julia12: [Wednesday, 21 August 2013 03:28] kerravon86:
<<< julia, while ever you have a repugnant view that Uday should be allowed to rape for as long as he feels
like it, I will attack youoh i missed this.
[2013-08-21 03:34:10] kerravon86: and i did a pretend goose-step under the brandenburg gate :)
[2013-08-21 03:34:53] julia12: hmmm, attack me??
[2013-08-21 03:34:56] kerravon86: (for a photo)
[2013-08-21 03:35:13] kerravon86: i attack anyone who stands in the way of world liberation
[2013-08-21 03:35:42] julia12: you're already attacking me with your very very interesting viewpoints
[2013-08-21 03:36:20] kerravon86: why did you want to debate someone other than me? i found Max, but I don't
see you debating him
[2013-08-21 03:37:13] julia12: because i heard so much from you.
[2013-08-21 03:37:48] Heathen Heart: julia, I am not sure who is going to teach it to me. maybe I will try to
learn it with youtube tutorials :D we'll see. And Paul, my family comes from East Germany. One grandfather of
mine is polish, and the other one lived in the east Prussia, which is Poland now. I myself was born in West
Germany though. Now you see why I couldn't be bothered with East/West Germany and also why I am not
nationalistic at all :P
[2013-08-21 03:37:54] julia12: and i think its always better to get a second third or 4th opinion??
[2013-08-21 03:38:11] Heathen Heart: I have to do some work, be right back in half an hour!
[2013-08-21 03:38:30] kerravon86: ok, i might be sleeping now.
[2013-08-21 03:38:46] kerravon86: but i'll keep the chat open and read it in the morning
[2013-08-21 03:39:07] julia12: Maybe Max and i can talk
[2013-08-21 03:39:19] kerravon86: you going to wait half an hour?
[2013-08-21 03:39:25] julia12: not sure
[2013-08-21 03:39:30] kerravon86: ok
[2013-08-21 03:39:35] kerravon86: have fun :)
[2013-08-21 03:39:48] julia12: gn  :)
[2013-08-21 04:21:30] Heathen Heart: ok I am back, sorry it took longer than expected
[2013-08-21 04:22:12] kerravon86: hi
[2013-08-21 04:23:23] kerravon86: julia has gone to bed and i am going to sleep now too, so see you in the
[2013-08-21 04:23:42] Heathen Heart: okay, see you!
[2013-08-22 19:28:23] kerravon86: hi max. are you back?
[2013-08-22 19:28:59] kerravon86: julia, are you there?
[2013-08-22 19:29:25] Heathen Heart: yes I am, was camping with some friends yesterday ^^
[2013-08-22 19:29:30] julia12: yes, Max and i were chatting
[2013-08-22 19:29:39] kerravon86: oh, you're already chatting?
[2013-08-22 19:29:43] kerravon86: what's the status?
[2013-08-22 19:29:45] julia12: yeah
[2013-08-22 19:30:18] julia12: maybe i can send you the conversation after?
[2013-08-22 19:30:21] kerravon86: ok
[2013-08-22 19:30:23] kerravon86: thanks
[2013-08-22 19:30:36] kerravon86: do you want to continue the conversation here so that i can monitor?
[2013-08-22 20:06:25] julia12: Max is not a pro-war
[2013-08-22 20:06:34] julia12: i can not debate with my ally
[2013-08-22 20:06:58] kerravon86: Max, I thought you supported the Iraq war after reading my document?
[2013-08-22 20:08:41] julia12: i think it is best if we let him do his own research and not told him to
believe or agree to whatever we believe right or wrong
[2013-08-22 20:08:58] kerravon86: this is the free marketplace of ideas
[2013-08-22 20:10:12] Heathen Heart: I have to rethink all the arguments
[2013-08-22 20:10:20] julia12: thats correct
[2013-08-22 20:10:25] kerravon86: how long will it take you to rethink?
[2013-08-22 20:10:58] Heathen Heart: until I made up an opinion probably
[2013-08-22 20:11:18] kerravon86: and how long is that? 1 hour? 1 day?
[2013-08-22 20:11:48] julia12: Paul, reading your document alone is not enough to make a good argument
[2013-08-22 20:12:00] Heathen Heart: as long as it takes
[2013-08-22 20:12:04] kerravon86: why? what's missing from my document?
[2013-08-22 20:14:00] julia12: well, its from a pro-war person. to make sure people don't make a bias points,
they need to verify or investigate further
[2013-08-22 20:14:31] julia12: people needs to understand why we have 50/50 figure
[2013-08-22 20:15:22] kerravon86: you can answer yourself why you're in one of those 50% figures instead of
the same 50% I am in
[2013-08-22 20:15:30] kerravon86: only you can answer that
[2013-08-22 20:15:44] kerravon86: why did you want uday to rape iraqi girls forever?
[2013-08-22 20:16:42] julia12: i didnt want girls to be raped by anyone. i never wish anyone a bad luck. and
Uday is not immortal
[2013-08-22 20:17:10] kerravon86: for as long as uday felt horny, you were willing to let him rape iraqi
girls instead of sending in the forces of the free world to arrest him
[2013-08-22 20:17:39] julia12: Uday is not the issue here.
[2013-08-22 20:17:51] kerravon86: and many other atrocities too. you were willing for the atrocities to
continue indefinitely from father to son
[2013-08-22 20:17:55] kerravon86: Uday IS the issue
[2013-08-22 20:18:08] kerravon86: and your attempt to protect him
[2013-08-22 20:18:14] kerravon86: protect his right to rape iraqi women
[2013-08-22 20:18:15] julia12: ops, US never listed that down
[2013-08-22 20:18:45] kerravon86: the US did list down rape as one of the reasons, and it's not just what
Bush says, it's ANY war supporter such as me
[2013-08-22 20:18:51] julia12: you have a longer list of reasons than US
[2013-08-22 20:19:00] kerravon86: and YOU should have held that same reason
[2013-08-22 20:19:20] kerravon86: yes, my list (and should be YOUR list) is longer than the US spelled out
[2013-08-22 20:19:36] julia12: rape is everywhere if that's your point! it's everywhere in the world
[2013-08-22 20:19:44] kerravon86: NOT LEGAL RAPE
[2013-08-22 20:20:04] kerravon86: only in cruel dictatorships can the dictator rape and not have to face the
[2013-08-22 20:20:23] kerravon86: iraqi women didn't have the right to not be raped. they were enslaved
[2013-08-22 20:20:55] julia12: so what do you think the figure 50/50 represents?
[2013-08-22 20:21:21] kerravon86: 50% of Australians are racist/nationalist/etc and don't care what happens
to Arab Muslim Iraqis
[2013-08-22 20:21:41] julia12: 50/50 in Iraq
[2013-08-22 20:21:58] kerravon86: 50% of Iraqis are racist who didn't accept white people entering their
[2013-08-22 20:22:12] julia12: is that how you look at it?
[2013-08-22 20:22:28] kerravon86: yep, that's my analysis. tell me why else someone would oppose freedom
[2013-08-22 20:23:05] julia12: paul they never oppose freedom. they oppose war
[2013-08-22 20:23:16] kerravon86: opposing war means opposing freedom
[2013-08-22 20:23:34] kerravon86: it means they are happy for saddam to continue being a cruel ruler
[2013-08-22 20:23:49] julia12: wrong. opposing war means they love their country and never want to be
[2013-08-22 20:24:10] kerravon86: loving your country, instead of an ideology is a sign of racism/nationalism
[2013-08-22 20:24:50] julia12: it means they think that US can't do any better than what Saddam is doing
[2013-08-22 20:25:15] kerravon86: it means they don't support the ideology of freedom above the ideology of
saddam's dictatorship
[2013-08-22 20:26:29] julia12: how could you speak for Iraqis? you're an Australian! ive spoken to several
Iraqis and they're not happy for what US did
[2013-08-22 20:26:54] kerravon86: you need to speak to more Iraqis. You have only spoken to one of the 50%
groups, not the pro-freedom 50%
[2013-08-22 20:27:01] julia12: ive spoken to someone who lost his mum during the war nd you can never imagine
how bad he felt about it
[2013-08-22 20:27:04] kerravon86: i don't speak for iraqis. iraqis speak for themselves now
[2013-08-22 20:27:27] julia12: yeah and they say it would be better if US stayed out of Iraq
[2013-08-22 20:27:32] kerravon86: have you spoken to anyone who was killed by saddam, or don't they matter?
[2013-08-22 20:27:39] kerravon86: no, iraqis don't speak with one voice
[2013-08-22 20:27:45] kerravon86: you can read the blogs of the pro-war iraqis
[2013-08-22 20:28:31] kerravon86: only 50% of Iraqis think it would be better for the US to stay out of Iraq.
The other 50% love freedom. And that 50% are my allies that I care about
[2013-08-22 20:28:34] julia12: regarless of what they say, i speak on waht i believe is right and just
[2013-08-22 20:28:44] julia12: you speak very logical
[2013-08-22 20:28:52] kerravon86: you speak on behalf of institutionalized rape by Uday
[2013-08-22 20:29:17] julia12: your logical reasoning power mismatch my humble ideas of life
[2013-08-22 20:29:32] kerravon86: what about humble ideas of rape?
[2013-08-22 20:29:34] kerravon86: legal rape
[2013-08-22 20:29:42] kerravon86: can you imagine being raped by your own government?
[2013-08-22 20:29:49] kerravon86: not being able to report the crime to the police?
[2013-08-22 20:29:59] kerravon86: because it is LEGAL for Uday to rape whoever he wants
[2013-08-22 20:30:15] julia12: thats terrible i believe!
[2013-08-22 20:30:30] kerravon86: if it's terrible, you should have helped end the iraqi holocaust!!!
[2013-08-22 20:30:35] julia12: but that doesnt give you the right to attack a country
[2013-08-22 20:30:39] kerravon86: yes it does
[2013-08-22 20:31:03] kerravon86: when the ruler has enslaved the population and taken away women's right to
not be raped, then it is over to external liberators to fix the problem
[2013-08-22 20:31:19] julia12: i think you have more personal reason to attack Iraq than Bush
[2013-08-22 20:31:27] kerravon86: fuck bush
[2013-08-22 20:31:31] julia12: :)
[2013-08-22 20:31:40] kerravon86: my list of reasons should be YOUR list of reasons. forget bush
[2013-08-22 20:32:20] julia12: i believe so, but we look at things so differently
[2013-08-22 20:32:37] kerravon86: which bit of the enlightenment document do you disagree with?
[2013-08-22 20:33:31] julia12: i dont think you should make such document in the first place
[2013-08-22 20:33:44] kerravon86: why not?
[2013-08-22 20:33:57] kerravon86: how else can i clarify the argument in favour of ending institutionalized
rape in iraq?
[2013-08-22 20:34:10] julia12: enligten who? how? by your own set of standards?
[2013-08-22 20:34:36] kerravon86: i have superior standards to anyone else in the world, so yes, i express
them clearly to enlighten others
[2013-08-22 20:34:50] julia12: thats exactly the problem!
[2013-08-22 20:35:03] julia12: you believe so much that you can change the world!
[2013-08-22 20:35:26] kerravon86: if people like you joined me instead of opposing, maybe we could stop ALL
LEGAL RAPE and human rights abuses by dictators
[2013-08-22 20:37:04] julia12: how do you intend to end legal rape?
[2013-08-22 20:37:14] kerravon86: exactly as happened in 2003 in iraq
[2013-08-22 20:37:30] kerravon86: replace a dictatorship with a democracy that protects women
[2013-08-22 20:37:39] julia12: and is there such a thing as LEGAL RAPE?
[2013-08-22 20:37:44] kerravon86: yes there is
[2013-08-22 20:38:07] kerravon86: in the iraqi holocaust, uday was allowed to abduct women off the street and
rape them, with no penalty
[2013-08-22 20:38:21] kerravon86: put yourself in that girl's shoes
[2013-08-22 20:38:29] kerravon86: how would you feel if you were being raped by Uday?
[2013-08-22 20:38:34] kerravon86: would you ask for help?
[2013-08-22 20:38:47] julia12: its not legal rape!
[2013-08-22 20:38:52] kerravon86: would you care whether the person helping you came from another country?
[2013-08-22 20:38:55] kerravon86: YES IT IS!!!
[2013-08-22 20:39:04] kerravon86: it's so bad that you can't even imagine it!
[2013-08-22 20:39:13] julia12: where in google can i search for it?
[2013-08-22 20:39:53] julia12: give me some link that says a LEGAL RAPE exist
[2013-08-22 20:40:02] kerravon86: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,454453,00.html
[2013-08-22 20:40:52] kerravon86: They maneuvered the girl in the direction of the parking lot, picked her up
and carried her to the backseat of Uday's car, covering her mouth to muffle her screams.
[2013-08-22 20:43:51] kerravon86: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uday_Hussein
[2013-08-22 20:44:00] kerravon86: Kidnapping young Iraqi women from the streets in order to rape them.[2]
Uday was known to intrude on parties and otherwise "discover" women whom he would later rape. Time published
an article in 2003 detailing his sexual brutality
[2013-08-22 20:44:14] julia12: ive read it, it never said there was Legal Rape
[2013-08-22 20:44:37] kerravon86: use your brain. uday raped, and no-one was allowed to stop him. that's
legal rape
[2013-08-22 20:44:55] kerravon86: when the police are unable to arrest and jail uday, it is legal rape
[2013-08-22 20:45:17] kerravon86: the RULE in iraq was that uday could rape whoever he damn well wanted
[2013-08-22 20:45:32] kerravon86: and you don't care about his rape victims
[2013-08-22 20:45:47] julia12: you used your own term for it. Uday is forcing women to make love to him in
exchange of money,car or good life.
[2013-08-22 20:46:03] kerravon86: or in exchange for nothing. it is FORCED SEX. it is RAPE
[2013-08-22 20:46:10] julia12: but there's no such thing as legal rape
[2013-08-22 20:46:11] kerravon86: and the police ALLOW him to do that
[2013-08-22 20:46:15] kerravon86: yes there is
[2013-08-22 20:46:24] kerravon86: when a person is ALLOWED to rape it is LEGAL RAPE
[2013-08-22 20:46:24] julia12: if it is legal then it is not rape!
[2013-08-22 20:46:39] kerravon86: yes it IS rape, even though it was legal for him to do that
[2013-08-22 20:46:44] kerravon86: rape is rape
[2013-08-22 20:47:08] julia12: ok what is rape?
[2013-08-22 20:47:20] kerravon86: how can you, as a woman, allow such a holocaust to continue and be on
Uday's side?
[2013-08-22 20:47:21] julia12: sex without consent?
[2013-08-22 20:47:24] kerravon86: yes
[2013-08-22 20:48:00] julia12: who is allowing Uday to rape woman?
[2013-08-22 20:48:06] kerravon86: saddam and his army
[2013-08-22 20:48:39] julia12: i am not allowing bad things to happen, but i believe i do not have the
superpower to stop it from happening
[2013-08-22 20:48:51] kerravon86: you don't need superpowers. you only need to support the US action
[2013-08-22 20:49:04] kerravon86: if you oppose the US action YOU ARE ALLOWING BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN
[2013-08-22 20:49:11] julia12: as if Uday is asking permission from those people ?
[2013-08-22 20:49:20] kerravon86: pardon?
[2013-08-22 20:49:40] julia12: [20:47:58] julia12: who is allowing Uday to rape woman?
[20:48:05] kerravon86: saddam and his army
[2013-08-22 20:49:52] julia12: [Thursday, 22 August 2013 20:49] julia12:
<<< as if Uday is asking permission from those people ?
[2013-08-22 20:50:02] kerravon86: those security forces know that Uday has the right (in Iraq) to do whatever
he feels like including rape
[2013-08-22 20:50:30] kerravon86: if you try to go to those security forces and report a rape, you will be
arrested yourself
[2013-08-22 20:50:45] julia12: HE is doing the rape, but nobody permits him to DO it! they just cant do
anything to help it from happening
[2013-08-22 20:51:00] julia12: its not LEGAL RAPE and i was using my brain indeed
[2013-08-22 20:51:18] julia12: heart and brain
[2013-08-22 20:51:20] kerravon86: it IS legal rape if you can't report a crime to the security forces because
it's not illegal!!!
[2013-08-22 20:51:30] kerravon86: the security forces do indeed protect Uday
[2013-08-22 20:51:37] kerravon86: Uday could go anywhere and rape anyone
[2013-08-22 20:51:38] julia12: you just CAN"T report it. but it is NOT legal
[2013-08-22 20:51:51] kerravon86: if you can't report it, then it is LEGAL or ALLOWED
[2013-08-22 20:52:07] kerravon86: how would you feel if you were one of those raped girls?
[2013-08-22 20:52:12] kerravon86: would you ask for help?
[2013-08-22 20:52:17] kerravon86: would you SCREAM for help?
[2013-08-22 20:52:22] julia12: can we ask for a third opinion on this issue?
[2013-08-22 20:52:31] kerravon86: sure. let's ask Max
[2013-08-22 20:53:10] kerravon86: Max, if Uday is allowed to abduct and rape women, and the security forces
protect him, do you consider that to be legal rape?
[2013-08-22 20:53:34] julia12: Max please read our conversation
[2013-08-22 20:53:40] Heathen Heart: ok
[2013-08-22 20:53:44] julia12: thank you
[2013-08-22 20:58:04] Heathen Heart: I am no expert on laws and things alike. But is there a law that forbids
him to do it? guess there is. in my opinion it would be illegal to rape, as it is in the constitution put
like that. I mean, if I would have a huge army and would pillage villages, but no one has the balls to stop
me, it is still illegal. but as I said, I am no expert on these issues
[2013-08-22 20:58:33] julia12: :)
[2013-08-22 20:58:46] julia12: thank you for sharing us your thoughts
[2013-08-22 20:58:49] kerravon86: it is not explicitly listed in any law that rape by Uday is legal. but it
is in the unwritten RULE book
[2013-08-22 20:59:04] kerravon86: it's just a term. you can replace "legal rape" with "banana" if you want
[2013-08-22 20:59:26] kerravon86: it's a term designed to explain that a man (any man) is allowed (according
to the security forces) to rape a woman
[2013-08-22 20:59:47] julia12: i'l take a nap now
[2013-08-22 20:59:57] julia12: bye for now Max
[2013-08-22 21:00:02] kerravon86: gn
[2013-08-22 21:00:10] julia12: gn Paul :)
[2013-08-22 21:00:38] Heathen Heart: bb!
[2013-08-22 21:01:44] julia12: [Thursday, 22 August 2013 20:58] Heathen Heart:
<<<  I mean, if I would have a huge army and would pillage villages, but no one has the balls to stop me, it
is still illegal.this is such a good point!
[2013-08-22 21:02:00] Heathen Heart: thank you :D
[2013-08-22 21:02:32] julia12: and i can't help myself from reading it again and again :)
[2013-08-22 21:02:43] kerravon86: it's just debating over a term. like i said - if you don't want to call
"allowed rape" as "illegal rape" you can call it "banana" if you want
[2013-08-22 21:02:51] kerravon86: it's the concept that matters
[2013-08-22 21:03:02] kerravon86: that a woman can be screaming out as she is being raped, and no-one gives a
[2013-08-22 21:03:06] kerravon86: well *I* give a shit
[2013-08-22 21:03:14] kerravon86: even if neither you nor Max give a shit
[2013-08-22 21:03:55] kerravon86: i meant "legal rape" above, not "illegal rape"
[2013-08-22 21:04:48] kerravon86: banana existed in Iraq and needed to be ended by an external force of
[2013-08-22 21:05:03] kerravon86: banana is totally unacceptable
[2013-08-22 21:05:18] Heathen Heart: I do give a shit. but I do for example not give a shit of the 8 years
old who take apples from the of my garden. it is illegal, but I don't mind it, still illegal
[2013-08-22 21:05:18] kerravon86: any government that allows banana must be toppled ASAP
[2013-08-22 21:06:15] Heathen Heart: still didn't get the "banana" concept of Paul
[2013-08-22 21:06:15] kerravon86: Max, if you give a shit about women being "legally raped" (banana) you
should have supported a war of liberation
[2013-08-22 21:06:23] kerravon86: legal rape = banana
[2013-08-22 21:06:43] kerravon86: it's just a term. doesn't matter what word you use for it. i say legal
rape. what term would you prefer?
[2013-08-22 21:07:01] julia12: and i myself care so much about girls being abused too.
[2013-08-22 21:07:04] kerravon86: when members of the government can abduct and rape and be protected by the
security forces - what do you call that?
[2013-08-22 21:08:16] Heathen Heart: how about "illegal, but by the security forces ignoed rape"?
[2013-08-22 21:08:34] julia12: they are not protected Paul, they just can't do anything about it
[2013-08-22 21:08:53] kerravon86: they ARE protected by the security forces. try reporting the crime to the
police and see what happens
[2013-08-22 21:09:08] kerravon86: Max, can you come up with a shorter term for that?
[2013-08-22 21:09:44] kerravon86: how about defacto legal rape?
[2013-08-22 21:09:52] julia12: haha!
[2013-08-22 21:09:53] Heathen Heart: that would be incorrect
[2013-08-22 21:10:11] julia12: :D
[2013-08-22 21:10:12] Heathen Heart: since it is against the constitution
[2013-08-22 21:10:31] kerravon86: how about "allowed rape" then?
[2013-08-22 21:10:41] Heathen Heart: yes, that's better
[2013-08-22 21:10:47] Heathen Heart: still illegal, but allowed
[2013-08-22 21:10:52] julia12: for me the term rape is bad enough to dscribe the action
[2013-08-22 21:11:08] Heathen Heart: like I allow the kids to take my apples. yeah, illegal but allowed
[2013-08-22 21:11:11] kerravon86: julia, when iraqi women were screaming out during an "allowed rape", why
didn't you contact the US government and BEG them to liberate Iraq?
[2013-08-22 21:11:32] julia12: who allowed the rape?
[2013-08-22 21:11:38] kerravon86: the Iraqi security forces
[2013-08-22 21:12:15] julia12: Uday asked permission from the security forces that he is going to rape the
[2013-08-22 21:12:48] kerravon86: no. it's after the event if you try to report it to the security forces,
you will find all those security forces protect Uday, not the Iraqi girl
[2013-08-22 21:13:05] kerravon86: can you imagine being that girl?
[2013-08-22 21:13:12] kerravon86: what would you do if you were that girl?
[2013-08-22 21:13:28] kerravon86: would you scream for help?
[2013-08-22 21:13:39] kerravon86: would you want the US to help you?
[2013-08-22 21:14:24] julia12: i feel sad about those girls and i never want anything bad happen to anyone
[2013-08-22 21:14:38] kerravon86: instead of just "feeling sad", why didn't you TAKE ACTION?
[2013-08-22 21:16:29] julia12: i know i should ask for help and those people in the security CANNOT help me.
NOT because they dont want to help me or that they are protecting Uday but because they CAN't do anything
about it
[2013-08-22 21:16:53] kerravon86: so who can help?
[2013-08-22 21:17:04] kerravon86: why didn't you contact those who can help?
[2013-08-22 21:17:11] julia12: who?
[2013-08-22 21:17:14] julia12: US?
[2013-08-22 21:17:15] kerravon86: the US military
[2013-08-22 21:17:16] kerravon86: yes
[2013-08-22 21:17:18] julia12: you?
[2013-08-22 21:17:30] kerravon86: you can contact me too, and i will lobby the australian government
[2013-08-22 21:18:49] julia12: thats so lovely of you, but im not selfish enough to ask US to bomb my country
and put my life and everyone else aat risk
[2013-08-22 21:19:05] kerravon86: it's called "liberate" and is not selfish
[2013-08-22 21:19:13] kerravon86: all iraqi women have the right to not be raped
[2013-08-22 21:19:19] kerravon86: they have a human right
[2013-08-22 21:19:41] kerravon86: and the US used the least force required to restore the Iraqi women's right
to not be raped
[2013-08-22 21:19:54] julia12: war is not the only option to free people
[2013-08-22 21:20:02] julia12: in Iraq particularly
[2013-08-22 21:20:04] kerravon86: you had 23 years to find another way to free people
[2013-08-22 21:20:13] kerravon86: you also have that opportunity now in syria
[2013-08-22 21:20:26] kerravon86: try writing to the syrian dictator and politely ask him to stand down in
favour of democracy
[2013-08-22 21:20:36] kerravon86: see how well "diplomacy" works
[2013-08-22 21:20:36] julia12: i dont think thats the best US can do
[2013-08-22 21:20:50] kerravon86: it is the best that i know of in the absence of magic wands
[2013-08-22 21:20:57] julia12: yes diplomatic solution is always the best option
[2013-08-22 21:21:02] kerravon86: try it!!!
[2013-08-22 21:21:05] kerravon86: try it in syria right now
[2013-08-22 21:21:07] julia12: it happened in my country
[2013-08-22 21:21:15] kerravon86: your country was LUCKY
[2013-08-22 21:21:24] julia12: we are free now
[2013-08-22 21:21:26] kerravon86: have a look at the difficulty the syrians are having
[2013-08-22 21:21:29] julia12: and it cost no blood
[2013-08-22 21:21:32] julia12: no money
[2013-08-22 21:21:37] Heathen Heart: when diplomacy works it's consideed "lucky"?
[2013-08-22 21:21:47] kerravon86: yes, you are LUCKY to be free in a bloodless revolution
[2013-08-22 21:21:49] julia12: it only cost poeple's love for the country and unity
[2013-08-22 21:22:00] kerravon86: the syrians ALREADY TRIED that and have been in a civil war for YEARS
[2013-08-22 21:22:04] julia12: it not NOT luck
[2013-08-22 21:22:12] julia12: Filipino people worked for it!
[2013-08-22 21:22:21] julia12: we made it hand and hand
[2013-08-22 21:22:26] kerravon86: Max, it wasn't diplomacy it was a revolution
[2013-08-22 21:22:38] julia12: thatss what you should be doing instead.
[2013-08-22 21:22:41] kerravon86: the syrian dictator is putting down the revolution with automatic weapons.
that didn't happen in the philippines
[2013-08-22 21:22:57] julia12: instead of asking people to support killing each other
[2013-08-22 21:23:15] kerravon86: julia, that is a very CRUEL thing to say. the poor syrian people have gone
to the streets to demand freedom and they were attacked by the military (unlike what happened in the
[2013-08-22 21:23:36] kerravon86: didn't you notice what happened when the chinese went to the street in
[2013-08-22 21:23:44] julia12: the thing is, they are under dictatoraship
[2013-08-22 21:23:54] julia12: and WE are under dictatorship too
[2013-08-22 21:23:58] kerravon86: yes, and they've already tried and failed at "people power"
[2013-08-22 21:23:59] julia12: whats the difference?
[2013-08-22 21:24:05] kerravon86: your dictator was not so cruel
[2013-08-22 21:24:13] kerravon86: your military was not so cruel
[2013-08-22 21:24:16] julia12: they can try again and again
[2013-08-22 21:24:20] julia12: and again
[2013-08-22 21:24:23] kerravon86: they can DIE again and again
[2013-08-22 21:24:28] kerravon86: they can't defeat automatic weapons
[2013-08-22 21:24:39] kerravon86: and it is CRUEL for you to say that they have to do it themselves
[2013-08-22 21:24:45] julia12: regardless of how cruel the dictator is, the fact is we are under DICTATOR!
[2013-08-22 21:24:58] julia12: this is not the battle of who is the most CRUEL DICTATOR
[2013-08-22 21:25:05] kerravon86: you were under a BENEVOLENT dictator not a CRUEL dictator
[2013-08-22 21:25:12] kerravon86: you can't compare. that is unfair and cruel to compare
[2013-08-22 21:25:12] julia12: its evading DICTATORS!
[2013-08-22 21:25:31] julia12: STILL A DICTATOR
[2013-08-22 21:25:39] kerravon86: expecting the poor Chinese/Iraqis/Syrians to die for you bloodsport
[2013-08-22 21:25:44] kerravon86: dictators are different
[2013-08-22 21:25:53] kerravon86: YOU were LUCKY to have a relatively good dictator
[2013-08-22 21:25:58] kerravon86: the Syrians are not so lucky
[2013-08-22 21:26:17] julia12: we are not LUCKY.that is HARDWORK
[2013-08-22 21:26:18] kerravon86: and you can't insist that the Syrians be as lucky as the Philippines
because that's not under their control!
[2013-08-22 21:26:23] kerravon86: it is ALSO LUCK
[2013-08-22 21:26:26] julia12: why not???
[2013-08-22 21:26:30] kerravon86: you didn't have a cruel dictator
[2013-08-22 21:26:44] kerravon86: cruel dictators slaughter revolutionaries with automatic weapons
[2013-08-22 21:26:52] julia12: i told you, IT IS A DICTATOR
[2013-08-22 21:27:02] kerravon86: i told YOU - dictators are different!!!
[2013-08-22 21:27:04] julia12: we want to get rid of dictators
[2013-08-22 21:27:17] kerravon86: and you were LUCKY that you had a benevolent dictator
[2013-08-22 21:27:22] julia12: we are not classifying them
[2013-08-22 21:27:40] kerravon86: yes we are. you can't insist that the syrians do the same thing that the
filipinos did
[2013-08-22 21:27:53] kerravon86: they ALREADY TRIED and failed with "people power"
[2013-08-22 21:28:02] julia12: lets fucos in Iraq first, we're not yet done with it
[2013-08-22 21:28:08] kerravon86: they need external military intervention
[2013-08-22 21:28:22] julia12: why do they fail? why filipinos succeeded?
[2013-08-22 21:28:27] kerravon86: iraqis rose up in 1991 with "people power" and 100,000 people were
[2013-08-22 21:28:31] julia12: maybe they should ask us?
[2013-08-22 21:28:33] kerravon86: i told you so many times
[2013-08-22 21:28:43] kerravon86: you can't compare the philippines dictator with saddam
[2013-08-22 21:28:48] kerravon86: it is unfair and cruel to compare them
[2013-08-22 21:29:11] kerravon86: also, at one point the philippines requested assistance from the US
military to protect its democracy
[2013-08-22 21:29:19] julia12: the thing is- we want to remove every dictator in power.
[2013-08-22 21:29:31] kerravon86: yes, and external military intervention will do that
[2013-08-22 21:30:07] julia12: and im telling you, Philippines was successful in removing our dictator from
power without war
[2013-08-22 21:30:26] julia12: that means, it is possible for every country to do that too
[2013-08-22 21:30:28] kerravon86: i've already explained to you that you can't compare what worked in the
philippines with iraq
[2013-08-22 21:30:33] kerravon86: no, it doesn't mean that at all
[2013-08-22 21:30:50] kerravon86: if you bothered to LOOK, you would see that 100,000 died in Iraq trying
exactly that!!!
[2013-08-22 21:31:28] julia12: and you wre not contented with that figure so you send US troops to kill more
[2013-08-22 21:32:03] kerravon86: US troops were sent in to LIBERATE Iraq, yes. that's exactly the right
thing to do morally. the iraqi people have human rights that saddam has no right to take away
[2013-08-22 21:32:25] kerravon86: it's YOU who is not content with the 100,000 dead and insisting that they
try "people power" again
[2013-08-22 21:32:34] julia12: morally??? thousands innocent death is moral?
[2013-08-22 21:32:47] kerravon86: yes, a war of freedom is moral, even if there are accidental deaths
[2013-08-22 21:33:01] kerravon86: there are accidents when the police respond to an emergency call too
[2013-08-22 21:33:11] kerravon86: it doesn't mean it's immoral to call the police
[2013-08-22 21:33:17] julia12: accidental deaths? wht do you consider accidental deaths?
[2013-08-22 21:33:27] kerravon86: when a bomb hits a non-combatant
[2013-08-22 21:34:11] julia12: so, is the 100,000 people who died in people power, are they killed
[2013-08-22 21:34:16] kerravon86: yes they were
[2013-08-22 21:34:22] julia12: or by "accidental death" too?
[2013-08-22 21:34:25] kerravon86: deliberate
[2013-08-22 21:34:31] julia12: how could you say that?
[2013-08-22 21:34:40] julia12: you are so bias in your opinion
[2013-08-22 21:34:42] kerravon86: that's what happens when you fight a revolution
[2013-08-22 21:34:49] kerravon86: i'm not biassed. i'm just sane
[2013-08-22 21:35:01] julia12: so that can be considered "accidental death" too
[2013-08-22 21:35:06] kerravon86: you are insane if you ask iraqis to hold revolutions when they tried that
already adn failed
[2013-08-22 21:35:14] julia12: so what's your problem with that?
[2013-08-22 21:35:27] kerravon86: no, all the 100,000 deaths were because Saddam wanted to remain dictator of
[2013-08-22 21:35:31] julia12: why not? im not insane, im so well
[2013-08-22 21:35:39] kerravon86: it was a deliberate action against people power
[2013-08-22 21:35:43] kerravon86: saddam won
[2013-08-22 21:35:57] kerravon86: you are insane for your desire to see bloodshed in failed revolutions
[2013-08-22 21:36:05] kerravon86: instead of using external military intervention
[2013-08-22 21:36:38] julia12: you are putting words in my mouth Paul, i never said i want to see bloods in
failed revolution
[2013-08-22 21:36:44] kerravon86: yes you did
[2013-08-22 21:36:51] kerravon86: you said they should try again and again
[2013-08-22 21:36:59] kerravon86: that's cruel and a bloodsport
[2013-08-22 21:37:46] julia12: well, do we need to ask for second opinion for that? whether i said that or
you just put it in my mouth?
[2013-08-22 21:38:01] kerravon86: we can cut and paste your conversation where you said that
[2013-08-22 21:38:11] kerravon86: no need for a second opinion, just the facts
[2013-08-22 21:38:45] julia12: i said, it was a success in the philippines and other countries can try it too
again and again and again
[2013-08-22 21:38:51] julia12: and again
[2013-08-22 21:38:56] kerravon86: right
[2013-08-22 21:39:18] kerravon86: even after 100,000 iraqis are dead you want them to try the same failed
[2013-08-22 21:39:35] julia12: you are looking at my words so bloody bad
[2013-08-22 21:39:51] kerravon86: you are bad for supporting legal rape/allowed rape/banana
[2013-08-22 21:40:14] julia12: you are again putting words in my mouth
[2013-08-22 21:40:26] kerravon86: no i'm not. you tried to keep uday in power
[2013-08-22 21:40:26] julia12: burp! burp!
[2013-08-22 21:40:46] kerravon86: by opposing the action that would make Uday face justice
[2013-08-22 21:43:09] julia12: by supporting war, you just killed innocent life, allowed kids to feel bad
about themselves and their country and mess up their dreams
[2013-08-22 21:43:41] kerravon86: any innocent life i killed was by accident and is ultimately the fault of
Saddam not stepping down in favour of democracy
[2013-08-22 21:43:53] kerravon86: the iraqis are now free to follow their dreams in their new democracy
[2013-08-22 21:44:41] kerravon86: saddam's last crime was to put his security forces in civilian areas, using
civilians as a shield
[2013-08-22 21:45:36] julia12: you know for a fact that Saddam will not surrender.but still you attacked
Iraq, so it is not accident
[2013-08-22 21:46:08] kerravon86: i attacked iraq in order to bring freedom. freedom isn't free. it often
requires a blood price to be paid
[2013-08-22 21:46:13] julia12: ask Iraqi people if they are happy. its been 10years
[2013-08-22 21:46:22] kerravon86: iraqis are divided 50/50 on that issue
[2013-08-22 21:46:34] julia12: we achieved FREEDOM FOR FREE
[2013-08-22 21:46:36] kerravon86: i support the 50% who think that freedom is good
[2013-08-22 21:46:47] kerravon86: USUALLY you need to pay a blood price for freedom
[2013-08-22 21:47:03] kerravon86: USUALLY the military/government doesn't change sides
[2013-08-22 21:47:08] kerravon86: in the philippines you were LUCKY
[2013-08-22 21:47:16] kerravon86: The Chinese tried the same thing and failed
[2013-08-22 21:47:28] kerravon86: the iraqis also failed. deaths for nothing except your love of bloodsports
[2013-08-22 21:47:30] julia12: you have 50/50 figure. if you run for presidency and you have only 51% support
of your population, you are a president in trouble
[2013-08-22 21:47:49] kerravon86: nonsense. in all our democracies the figure is normally about 51%
[2013-08-22 21:48:11] julia12: because that 49% of the population will do anything to mess you up. and
trouble will never end
[2013-08-22 21:48:19] kerravon86: nonsense
[2013-08-22 21:48:30] kerravon86: the 49% accept the result and wait for the next elections
[2013-08-22 21:48:38] julia12: look waht happen in Iraq, after 10years, it is still a HOT ISSUE in the market
[2013-08-22 21:48:59] kerravon86: so?
[2013-08-22 21:49:03] julia12: its nonsense if you dont understand that
[2013-08-22 21:49:10] kerravon86: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012
[2013-08-22 21:49:18] kerravon86: obama got in with 51.1% of the vote
[2013-08-22 21:49:38] kerravon86: the exact figure you said would cause chaos or whatever other crap you
[2013-08-22 21:49:59] julia12: obama is a good president
[2013-08-22 21:50:06] julia12: not like Bush
[2013-08-22 21:50:07] julia12: evil
[2013-08-22 21:50:12] kerravon86: so? it refutes your claim that 51% means trouble
[2013-08-22 21:50:20] kerravon86: that is complete and utter nonsense
[2013-08-22 21:50:39] kerravon86: Bush was not evil. YOU are evil for protecting a rapist like Uday
[2013-08-22 21:51:01] julia12: well , if you believe in luck then Obama is "lucky"
[2013-08-22 21:51:27] kerravon86: Obama is neither lucky nor unlucky. what crap are you making up now?
[2013-08-22 21:52:12] kerravon86: at the last australian federal election, the winner got 50.12% of the vote.
another nail in the coffin of your pathetic ideas
[2013-08-22 21:52:13] kerravon86: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_federal_election,_2010
[2013-08-22 21:52:21] julia12: you should never ignore the 50% of the population wanting freedom by peaceful
[2013-08-22 21:53:07] kerravon86: yes, i can ignore people who are dreaming that a dictator will peacefully
surrender power. when women are being raped it is an EMERGENCY requiring IMMEDIATE ACTION unless you have a
[2013-08-22 21:53:12] julia12: that maybe the battle between good and good thats why you had that figures
[2013-08-22 21:53:17] julia12: not good vs bad
[2013-08-22 21:53:24] julia12: like the Iraq war
[2013-08-22 21:53:30] julia12: where you get 50/50
[2013-08-22 21:53:39] kerravon86: which 50/50 do you want to see?
[2013-08-22 21:54:07] julia12: again, how can you prove that a woman is raped?
[2013-08-22 21:54:31] julia12: i dont make up excuses, excuse me.
[2013-08-22 21:55:13] kerravon86: iraq was a dictatorship. there is no oversight of all of saddam's
atrocities. the best we have is reports. the ultimate problem is that iraq wasn't a liberal democracy with
protection of human rights
[2013-08-22 21:55:18] kerravon86: i gave you a link already
[2013-08-22 21:55:32] kerravon86: that's the best we have from outside the dictatorship
[2013-08-22 21:56:07] kerravon86: you don't even have an excuse to be supporting Uday like you did
[2013-08-22 21:56:44] julia12: Philippines was a dictatorship
[2013-08-22 21:57:09] kerravon86: how many fucking times do i need to tell you that you can't compare the
philippines to iraq where 100,000 died in people power?
[2013-08-22 21:57:12] kerravon86: your bloodsport
[2013-08-22 21:57:14] julia12: and i dont support Uday. or his actions
[2013-08-22 21:57:23] julia12: im supporting PEACE
[2013-08-22 21:57:31] kerravon86: yes you did. you protected Uday by standing in the way of the liberation
[2013-08-22 21:57:39] julia12: BURP!
[2013-08-22 21:57:39] kerravon86: PEACE = "Uday can rape whenever he wants"
[2013-08-22 21:58:01] julia12: oh, is that how you define PEACE? thats terrible!
[2013-08-22 21:58:10] kerravon86: it's how YOU define it
[2013-08-22 21:58:18] julia12: ops! BURP!
[2013-08-22 21:58:26] kerravon86: You wanted Iraq to stay "peaceful" ie Uday remains in power able to rape
whenever he wants
[2013-08-22 21:58:38] kerravon86: you have no problem with the atrocities in Iraq
[2013-08-22 21:58:48] kerravon86: so long as no external country entered Iraq you were happy
[2013-08-22 21:58:52] kerravon86: happy with your rape/peace
[2013-08-22 21:59:25] julia12: so you mean the 50% of the population the oppose war, love Saddam or Uday's
[2013-08-22 21:59:41] julia12: is that how you look at them?
[2013-08-22 21:59:53] kerravon86: it means they didn't care about living under a dictatorship as much as they
cared about stopping whites from entering their country
[2013-08-22 22:00:10] kerravon86: yes, they are my enemy (racist/religious bigots/nationalists)
[2013-08-22 22:00:10] julia12: is that how you look at them?
[2013-08-22 22:00:21] julia12: ohh, too bad!
[2013-08-22 22:00:27] kerravon86: you're my enemy too
[2013-08-22 22:00:54] kerravon86: one day we will meet over the barrel of a gun and i will ensure a dum-dum
bullet explodes your head
[2013-08-22 22:01:19] julia12: well, i don't look at you as my enemy
[2013-08-22 22:01:25] kerravon86: i cannot accept anyone who supports uday's right to rape
[2013-08-22 22:01:25] julia12: but if you insist, i will
[2013-08-22 22:02:02] julia12: do you have problem understanding my viewpoints?
[2013-08-22 22:02:11] kerravon86: i understand your repugnant view
[2013-08-22 22:02:19] julia12: i don't think so
[2013-08-22 22:02:27] kerravon86: which bit don't i understand?
[2013-08-22 22:02:36] julia12: from you?
[2013-08-22 22:02:38] kerravon86: you have a desire for "peace" even if that means Uday raping
[2013-08-22 22:02:55] kerravon86: you don't care about holocausts
[2013-08-22 22:03:07] julia12: i understand you. i just can't believe the way your arguments going
[2013-08-22 22:03:23] kerravon86: you made a claim that i didn't understand your repugnant view
[2013-08-22 22:03:29] kerravon86: where is your evidence that i don't understand it?
[2013-08-22 22:03:48] kerravon86: you are an inherently evil person who backs credits like Uday in the name
of "peace"
[2013-08-22 22:04:11] kerravon86: it's like backing Hitler
[2013-08-22 22:04:20] julia12: AGAIN, i dont support rape. or any other bad activities, but i firmly believe
in acheiving freedom by peaceful means
[2013-08-22 22:04:34] julia12: and im sick of repeating that
[2013-08-22 22:04:50] kerravon86: when you say "peaceful means only" you mean "uday can rape for as long as
he wants". that is evil
[2013-08-22 22:05:17] kerravon86: instead of treating the iraqi holocaust as an EMERGENCY requiring IMMEDIATE
[2013-08-22 22:05:27] julia12: thats how YOU look at it
[2013-08-22 22:05:30] kerravon86: if my daughter was being raped, i would demand immediate action
[2013-08-22 22:05:49] julia12: unfortunately, not everyone thinks the way you do
[2013-08-22 22:06:00] kerravon86: yes, other people have evil ways of thinking
[2013-08-22 22:06:06] kerravon86: they don't care about Uday's victims
[2013-08-22 22:06:13] kerravon86: because they're the wrong race/religion/etc
[2013-08-22 22:06:17] julia12: i dare you to publish this conversation and ask for people's opinion
[2013-08-22 22:06:23] julia12: go
[2013-08-22 22:06:33] kerravon86: i'm happy to publish this conversation
[2013-08-22 22:06:38] julia12: im sick and tired of repeating myself
[2013-08-22 22:06:42] julia12: GO
[2013-08-22 22:06:51] kerravon86: i'm sick of you being an evil person supporting Uday's right to rape
[2013-08-22 22:07:17] julia12: ask people if I MEAN IT THE WAY YOU INTERPRET IT
[2013-08-22 22:07:36] kerravon86: you can ask Max
[2013-08-22 22:07:37] julia12: i'll kneel on you if you got people agree with you
[2013-08-22 22:07:44] julia12: sure
[2013-08-22 22:07:47] kerravon86: agree to what?
[2013-08-22 22:09:29] julia12: [Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:04] julia12:
<<< AGAIN, i dont support rape. or any other bad activities, but i firmly believe in acheiving freedom by
peaceful means
and im sick of repeating thatand you said i was evil and that i was supporting Uday
[2013-08-22 22:10:03] julia12: ask people if they will agree that i am evil
[2013-08-22 22:10:54] kerravon86: ok, i'll ask ivan
[2013-08-22 22:11:04] kerravon86: i'll send this entire conversation to him. ok?
[2013-08-22 22:11:24] julia12: why dont you make this conversation available for public opinion?
[2013-08-22 22:11:36] kerravon86: i can post the whole thing on my blog if you want
[2013-08-22 22:11:44] julia12: and not pick people you want
[2013-08-22 22:11:51] julia12: sure!
[2013-08-22 22:12:11] kerravon86: Max, are you happy for this whole conversation to be put on my blog?
[2013-08-22 22:12:17] kerravon86: including skype id
[2013-08-22 22:12:51] julia12: also ask for Max's opinion about what you just said to me
[2013-08-22 22:13:17] Heathen Heart: okay sure
[2013-08-22 22:13:31] kerravon86: Max, is someone who allows Uday to rape and insisting that no force at all
be used against him (ie totally unlike all modern first-world countries), considered evil?
[2013-08-22 22:13:42] julia12: hi Max, are you reading our conversation?
[2013-08-22 22:13:53] julia12: just let Max read it!
[2013-08-22 22:14:13] julia12: you don't need to rephrase it
[2013-08-22 22:14:36] Heathen Heart: phew, that's a looong conversation
[2013-08-22 22:14:41] julia12: :)
[2013-08-22 22:15:22] kerravon86: it's amazing what length someone will go to to protect a rapist like Uday
from facing justice
[2013-08-22 22:15:28] julia12: and you dre-phrased it really badly
[2013-08-22 22:15:43] kerravon86: what's wrong with my rephrasing?
[2013-08-22 22:15:44] julia12: IM NOT PROTECTING UDAY!
[2013-08-22 22:15:47] kerravon86: yes you are
[2013-08-22 22:15:59] kerravon86: you protected the saddam regime from the forces of freedom
[2013-08-22 22:16:08] julia12: YOU just said I was protecting him
[2013-08-22 22:16:19] julia12: base on your policies!
[2013-08-22 22:16:34] kerravon86: right - when you oppose the forces of the free world, you are protecting
the saddam regime
[2013-08-22 22:17:04] julia12: im in a search for peace and truth
[2013-08-22 22:17:15] kerravon86: you've searched for that for 23 years of the saddam dictatorship
[2013-08-22 22:17:24] kerravon86: no-one could budge him diplomatically
[2013-08-22 22:17:28] julia12: no, i just did it months ago
[2013-08-22 22:17:41] kerravon86: only war could restore human rights to the iraqi people
[2013-08-22 22:17:48] kerravon86: and you tried to stand in the way of that
[2013-08-22 22:17:54] julia12: ONLY WAR? so bad!
[2013-08-22 22:18:01] kerravon86: ONLY RAPE? so bad!
[2013-08-22 22:18:18] julia12: ops, I NEVER said that
[2013-08-22 22:18:23] julia12: burp again?
[2013-08-22 22:18:58] kerravon86: you are the one who refuses to use force against a rapist so long as
they're only raping brown Muslims. If it was you in the Philippines you would DEMAND the police use force to
protect you.
[2013-08-22 22:19:05] kerravon86: you're a racist fuckwit
[2013-08-22 22:19:29] julia12: be carefull with your words.
[2013-08-22 22:19:33] kerravon86: it's the truth
[2013-08-22 22:20:18] julia12: im sorry, i don't really know how to say bad words to people
[2013-08-22 22:20:37] kerravon86: should the philippines police use force against rapists or should they only
use diplomacy to stop the rapist from raping?
[2013-08-22 22:21:25] julia12: ofcourse! we have rules to follow
[2013-08-22 22:22:05] kerravon86: why do you demand force to be used to protect yourself in the philippines,
but don't want force to be used against Uday and Saddam?
[2013-08-22 22:22:12] julia12: and your question made me think that, are we still under dictatorship because
we are STILL following rules?
[2013-08-22 22:22:31] julia12: how do you want me to answer your question?
[2013-08-22 22:23:08] kerravon86: i want you to admit that rape is an unconscionable crime and that
international forces should intervene when a government does that or allows that
[2013-08-22 22:23:14] julia12: oh common, eating ice cream is so much different from eating steak!
[2013-08-22 22:23:24] kerravon86: pardon?
[2013-08-22 22:23:39] julia12: you can't use that situation as an example
[2013-08-22 22:23:44] kerravon86: why not?
[2013-08-22 22:24:12] kerravon86: see this:
[2013-08-22 22:24:13] kerravon86: http://antisubjugator.blogspot.com.au/2007/06/irc-debate.html
[2013-08-22 22:24:15] julia12: again, why don't you just publish our conversation and ask for public opinion
[2013-08-22 22:24:18] kerravon86: how do you answer that?
[2013-08-22 22:24:30] kerravon86: i will publish it on my blog
[2013-08-22 22:24:36] kerravon86: opinion will be divided
[2013-08-22 22:24:40] kerravon86: it's always divided
[2013-08-22 22:24:50] kerravon86: what will that prove?
[2013-08-22 22:25:19] julia12: rape is a crime! i told you many times i dont support rape or any kind of bad
activities! you are just putting words in my mouth to gain your victory!
[2013-08-22 22:25:42] kerravon86: you ARE supporting rape when you try to protect a rapist from facing
[2013-08-22 22:26:00] julia12: you dont hear me putting words into your mouth or even re phrasing what you
actually said
[2013-08-22 22:26:11] julia12: because i fight in fair manner
[2013-08-22 22:26:11] kerravon86: i hear you advocating bloodsports
[2013-08-22 22:26:22] kerravon86: and preventing rapists from facing justice
[2013-08-22 22:26:43] julia12: stop PUTTING WORDS into my mouth!
[2013-08-22 22:26:56] kerravon86: that's an accurate description of what you are doing
[2013-08-22 22:27:49] julia12: you have your own sets of policies, you have your own set of standards and
when people doesnt agree with you YOU categorized them as EVIL person!
[2013-08-22 22:28:16] kerravon86: that's correct. i think that rape is wrong, and that anyone who rapes, or
protects a rapist, is evil. Max, what do you think?
[2013-08-22 22:28:40] julia12: its nonsense talking to you. im more interesed to see how people would react
to this conversation
[2013-08-22 22:28:45] julia12: bye
[2013-08-22 22:28:49] kerravon86: bye
[2013-08-22 22:28:53] julia12: just post it
[2013-08-22 22:29:08] kerravon86: i will. i'll wait to see if max wants to say anything else first
[2013-08-22 22:29:19] julia12: Max, i'l standby to wait for your comment
[02:57:53] Heathen Heart: [Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:28] kerravon86:
<<< that's correct. i think that rape is wrong, and that anyone who rapes, or protects a rapist, is evil
[02:58:09] Heathen Heart: agreed here
[03:00:03] Heathen Heart: calling julia a "rapist protector" is a hard accusement
[03:00:58] Heathen Heart: She tries to solve problems without war, so she doesn't actually protect 'em
[03:01:51] Heathen Heart: but on the other hand, if she is against the only in that case possible solution,
she stops them from getting their rightful punishment


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